AHC Make Greece comprise this territory

Do you think it were possible that Greece might have had possesed this territory in OTL

  • yes

    Votes: 25 89.3%
  • no

    Votes: 3 10.7%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
My challange to you is to make greece a larger country geopgraphically. How can you with a POD in 1900 make a Greece that includes, present day greece, cyprus and turkish thrace. I have uploaded a picture to show you what this alternate Greece would look like.
 

Attachments

  • grekia.PNG
    grekia.PNG
    16.3 KB · Views: 824
Since this is doable in a multitude of ways let's make it a bit more challenging. So POD in 1923, the Lausagne negotiations break down and the Greeks attack in East Thrace. At the moment they had numerical superiority of roughly 3-4 to 1 on the armistice line, the Greek navy could probably hinder shipment of reinforcements from Anatolia and the western allies were mildly supportive. Greek army ends up on the Bosporus but unable to attack the Turkish army in Anatolia, Turkish army cannot cross the straits either with Greek battleships and 9 divisions behind them and peace is signed on the status qwo.

Turkey is pissd off enough to be somewhat more pro-axis during ww2 but not enough to make the mistake of jumping in, while Ismet got discredited enough for the more autocratic Recep Peker to succeed Kemal. On the other side of the straits Greece was somewhat more stable and more solidly Venizelist .It enters the war as a republic in 1940 and avoids civil war afterwards, the government in exile in Crete has no legitimacy issues unlike OTL. Come 1949 Greece joins NATO but Turkey does not although it still receives military and economic aid. Come to 1950s-60s union of Cyprus with Greece follows more or less peacefully and with US support...
 
Tweak the Greco-Turkish war so it ends under a Uti possidetis peace or armistice, maybe without any population transfers. This would create a tense situation. Turkey doesn't need to join the Axis afterwords but if they did and then end up losing side would go a long way to creating a permanent border. Also if that happened they would probably lose Kars as well.
 
Last edited:
Since this is doable in a multitude of ways let's make it a bit more challenging. So POD in 1923, the Lausagne negotiations break down and the Greeks attack in East Thrace. At the moment they had numerical superiority of roughly 3-4 to 1 on the armistice line, the Greek navy could probably hinder shipment of reinforcements from Anatolia and the western allies were mildly supportive. Greek army ends up on the Bosporus but unable to attack the Turkish army in Anatolia, Turkish army cannot cross the straits either with Greek battleships and 9 divisions behind them and peace is signed on the status qwo.

Turkey is pissd off enough to be somewhat more pro-axis during ww2 but not enough to make the mistake of jumping in, while Ismet got discredited enough for the more autocratic Recep Peker to succeed Kemal. On the other side of the straits Greece was somewhat more stable and more solidly Venizelist .It enters the war as a republic in 1940 and avoids civil war afterwards, the government in exile in Crete has no legitimacy issues unlike OTL. Come 1949 Greece joins NATO but Turkey does not although it still receives military and economic aid. Come to 1950s-60s union of Cyprus with Greece follows more or less peacefully and with US support...
Do you think the population exchange between Greece and Turkey would take place in such a timeline? In that case Turkey would recieve alot more refugees, who i assume they would settle in kurdish populated areas. Combined with more agressive turkification of Kurds.
 
An interesting side effect of Greece winning the 1919 war is that modern Greek culture would be very different without the influx of Anatolian Greeks (if the population exchanges didn’t occur). For instance, much of modern Greek music derived from rembetiko, an umbrella term for 20th century Greek urban music that arose specifically from the interactions between locals and refugees.
 
IMHO, not too hard. Simply, King of Greece accepts British proposal for early entry into WW1 in exchange for Cyprus. After that, the Greeks push for E. Trakia instead for Jonia. Much easier to take and hold against Turks. The only problem is Constantinople, but even with Constantinople under international administration, that's pretty much it.
 
After WWII, Turkey goes communist - before Turkey has a chance to fall into the Soviet orbit, Greece attacks with western support.

That concept is hellish. Given both were part of NATO and still went to war over Cyprus, imagine them on conflicting sides with control over the straights at stake. WWIII hotspot x10.
 
Do you think the population exchange between Greece and Turkey would take place in such a timeline? In that case Turkey would recieve alot more refugees, who i assume they would settle in kurdish populated areas. Combined with more agressive turkification of Kurds.

I have specifically put the POD after the Greek defeat in Asian Minor and indeed after the protocol for the exchange of populations. So definitely yes. The difference from the Greek point of view is that the Greeks of East Thrace can return to their homes and additional refugees can be settled there as well, which significantly ameliorates the refugee problem and probably leads to quite fewer deaths among the refugees. On the reverse Turkey gets way more refugees, but I don't see them being settled east, even with the increased number of refugees the land and housing left behind by the expelled Anatolian Greeks should suffice to resettle them.

Side effect, you have Greek Constantinople and Turkish Istanbul side by side separated by the straits...
 
Since this is doable in a multitude of ways let's make it a bit more challenging. So POD in 1923, the Lausagne negotiations break down and the Greeks attack in East Thrace. At the moment they had numerical superiority of roughly 3-4 to 1 on the armistice line, the Greek navy could probably hinder shipment of reinforcements from Anatolia and the western allies were mildly supportive. Greek army ends up on the Bosporus but unable to attack the Turkish army in Anatolia, Turkish army cannot cross the straits either with Greek battleships and 9 divisions behind them and peace is signed on the status qwo.

Turkey is pissd off enough to be somewhat more pro-axis during ww2 but not enough to make the mistake of jumping in, while Ismet got discredited enough for the more autocratic Recep Peker to succeed Kemal. On the other side of the straits Greece was somewhat more stable and more solidly Venizelist .It enters the war as a republic in 1940 and avoids civil war afterwards, the government in exile in Crete has no legitimacy issues unlike OTL. Come 1949 Greece joins NATO but Turkey does not although it still receives military and economic aid. Come to 1950s-60s union of Cyprus with Greece follows more or less peacefully and with US support...
I am not entirely sure that this Greece would have to fight in WW2 at all. With less economic hardship and instability during the interwar period Greece would likely be able to afford better armed forces and present an image of a somewhat less divided society. Would Mussolini still invade Greece if he realizes he'll have to fight a real war? Or butterflies might lead to him invading Yugoslavia first, failing and being forced to scrap any plans about Greece after Germany intervenes. Otherwise it sounds interesting though.
 
I am not entirely sure that this Greece would have to fight in WW2 at all. With less economic hardship and instability during the interwar period Greece would likely be able to afford better armed forces and present an image of a somewhat less divided society. Would Mussolini still invade Greece if he realizes he'll have to fight a real war? Or butterflies might lead to him invading Yugoslavia first, failing and being forced to scrap any plans about Greece after Germany intervenes. Otherwise it sounds interesting though.
Depending on Greek relations to Britain. How strong are the relations? What binds Greece and Britain togheter? Do they have anything against each other? If Greece has more support from Britian during its time of need, it is likely that Greece would be more pro-british. This neccesitates that in a world war 2 scenario, axis attack Greece. Turkey might be inclined to regain territory, and therefore join axis? Also maybe a stronger and more succesfull Greece would help convince more italians of mediterraneanism. Would this have any effect on Italian poltical climate?
 
I am not entirely sure that this Greece would have to fight in WW2 at all. With less economic hardship and instability during the interwar period Greece would likely be able to afford better armed forces and present an image of a somewhat less divided society. Would Mussolini still invade Greece if he realizes he'll have to fight a real war? Or butterflies might lead to him invading Yugoslavia first, failing and being forced to scrap any plans about Greece after Germany intervenes. Otherwise it sounds interesting though.

You are correct that Greece is going to be relatively stronger. Would that suffice to deter Mussolini? I have my doubts to say the least. The whole procedure by which Mussolini and his advisors decided to invade Greece does not appear all that rational to put it mildly. It starts with plans to attack both Yugoslavia and Greece in summer 1940, proceeds from there to scrapping the Yugoslav invasion due to German pressure and putting on hold the Greek invasion all in the "certain knowledge" of eminent British defeat to finally deciding to attack Greece to counter the German treaty with Romania. And for the whole time he's cheered on by Ciano who wants an attack, De Vecchi from Rhodes that thinks this way he'd increase his colony in importance to Prasca who insists his forces in Albania are sufficient, because if they are much increased someone more senior will take command and thus he'll lose his promotion. While at the same time systematically ignoring all reports against an invasion.

I don't think this is going to change just because Greece can mobilize 18 instead of 15 divisions or because the Greek navy has 16 instead of 10 destroyers for example. More likely that Mussolini keeps willfully ignoring any advice against attacking.
 
Top