AHC Make Greater Macedonia/Fyrom happen

[Hvalrossen]

With a pod in 1900 have Greater Macedonia form as a independant state, a union state or part of Bulgaria. Preferably as an independant state though.

Bonus if you manage to create this greater Macedonia in a way that it would be the only change from OTL 2018 map.

 

[Lewie]

As a part of Bulgaria, its doable. Your best bet is a central powers victory in ww1. But an independent Greater Macedonia is simply impossible.
Modern Macedonians are Slavs with delusions of grandeur.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

1 - have the Balkan countries divide up European Turkey BEFORE the war and stick to the bargain. A large Macedonia could be the result of "I'm not getting that land myself but B or C are not getting it either!" attitude. Hence Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria are all EQUALLY unhappy
Maybe such a Macedonia gets a mix of Serb and Greek Royalty as a bone throwing measure.
2 - have Bulgaria decisively win Round 2.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Not sure such a state could exist with a POD after 1900. I could see a Kingdom of Macedonia, with relatively balanced numbers of Slavic Macedonians and Greek Macedonians along with Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, Jews, Romany, and others, being carved out of the Ottoman Empire as part of some diplomatic agreement, but after 1900 I don't see such a state existing, at least not long-term.

 

[Hvalrossen]

As a part of Bulgaria, its doable. Your best bet is a central powers victory in ww1. But an independent Greater Macedonia is simply impossible.
Modern Macedonians are Slavs with delusions of grandeur.

Modern Macedonians are South Slavs. South Slavs are a population that are seperate from the original Slavs. This is becouse the South Slavs are descendants of both Slavic migrants and indiginous Balkanic populations(Thracian,Illyrian,Dacian and probably Greek too). They(South Slavs) also have some descent from other populations like Bulgars, Goths and other populations. I am not very familiar with Balkan history, but is there a possibility that Macedonian Slavs are descend from both ancient macedonians and slavic migrants?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Modern Macedonians are South Slavs. South Slavs are a population that are seperate from the original Slavs. This is becouse the South Slavs are descendants of both Slavic migrants and indiginous Balkanic populations(Thracian,Illyrian,Dacian and probably Greek too). They(South Slavs) also have some descent from other populations like Bulgars, Goths and other populations. I am not very familiar with Balkan history, but is there a possibility that Macedonian Slavs are descend from both ancient macedonians and slavic migrants?

They are. And so are most Greeks, since they're descended from a mix of Ancient Greeks, Slavs, and Greek-speaking Anatolians (assimilated Lydians, Mysians, and other speakers of Anatolian languages).

 

[Hvalrossen]

They are. And so are most Greeks, since they're descended from a mix of Ancient Greeks, Slavs, and Greek-speaking Anatolians (assimilated Lydians, Mysians, and other speakers of Anatolian languages).

If both modern Greeks and Slavo-Macedonians are descendant from ancient greeks/ancient macedonians, then cannot both have claims to some of the legacy? The descendants of different groupes of ancient Greeks, assimilated into different modern day populations. Is there a way to track this so that modern populations only claim the legacy of their own ancient greek forefathers?

 

[Hvalrossen]

1 - have the Balkan countries divide up European Turkey BEFORE the war and stick to the bargain. A large Macedonia could be the result of "I'm not getting that land myself but B or C are not getting it either!" attitude. Hence Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria are all EQUALLY unhappy
Maybe such a Macedonia gets a mix of Serb and Greek Royalty as a bone throwing measure.
2 - have Bulgaria decisively win Round 2.

Also maybe other powers might want to prevent the formation of a large Balkan state or coalition.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Let's say that Yugoslavia somehow conquered Greek Macedonia to 'unify' Macedonia. What would happen to the Greek inhabitants of the area, aswell as other non slavic people. How would this conquest impact Yugoslav politics both internal and external. What would be the effects on Greece? Would Greece be more urbanised, densley populated or the opposite?

 

[Redcoat]

Macedonia is just Serbian Bulgaria.


I'm not Bulgarian this is just fact.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Only way i see it happening is if the serbs/yugoslavs invade greece and take their portion of macedonia. This would be a monumentally stupid idea and would probs result in entirity of balkans teaming up to dismantle yugoslavia as they alienated one of their most reliable allies.

 

[Arkenfolm]

If both modern Greeks and Slavo-Macedonians are descendant from ancient greeks/ancient macedonians, then cannot both claims some lagacy? The descendants of different groupes of ancient Greeks, assimilated into different modern day populations. Is there a way to track this so that modern populations only claim the legacy of their own ancient greek forefathers?

Except they can, since there's absolutely nothing stopping them. Both groups live in the same place and have the same history, plus have similar interactions with other groups in the region (Turks, Jews, Romany, Albanians, Aromanians/"Vlachs"). They have very similar culture and differ mainly linguistically. The main separation comes in the 19th century with the rise of nationalism.

Let's say that Yugoslavia somehow conquered Greek Macedonia to 'unify' Macedonia. What would happen to the Greek inhabitants of the area, aswell as other non slavic people. How would this conquest impact Yugoslav politics both internal and external. What would be the effects on Greece? Would Greece be more urbanised, densley populated or the opposite?

They governed the Kosovo Albanians as well as local Vlach and Hungarian populations, so adding some Greeks wouldn't be too much of a problem. Aside from the initial conquest, of course, which would be the result of an alt-WWI or WWII and obviously piss off Greece.

 

[DocJamore]

View attachment 381264
With a pod in 1900 have Greater Macedonia form as a independant state, a union state or part of Bulgaria. Preferably as an independant state though.

Bonus if you manage to create this greater Macedonia in a way that it would be the only change from OTL 2018 map.

The problem is that if left to themselves, the Balkian nations would fight for decades over Macedonia because an independent Macedonia was an antithesis to their national identity. If you want an independent Macedonia than you need outside intervention. By that I mean that the Great Powers have to get together and cut up European Turkey into spheres. It would resemble the Sykes–Picot Agreement but in the Balkans instead of the Middle East. Just like in the SPA, the Balkan nations would get no say in the matter. Otherwise we are not seeing a Macedonia. But there are problems with this I shall explain.

The country with the most interest in a Macadonian state would be Austria-Hungary because the Hapsburgs had a long held ambition to control Salonkia. If TTL Macedonia wound up under their "mandate" than it would put a lot of pressure on Serbia and Montenegro to defect into Austria's camp. So the empire in Europe that is most opposed to nationalism would be the one most interested in creating a proxy of itself in the Balkians. But by 1900 Austria-Hungary was not in the best of shape.

Demographically the country would be made up of Greeks and Slavs. There were people in the region who did identify as "Macedonians" regardless of what language they spoke but there were also people who identified as Greeks and Bulgarians. And this is why I feel that it is improbable this can be done with a post 1900 POD. People in the region were already riled up enough. The country that we could take an example for how this country would work would be Belgium but Belgium was created before the Age of Nationalism really took off. I am not sure if a Belgium that was created after 1900 would be a viable state...

 

[TruthfulPanda]

If you want an independent Macedonia than you need outside intervention. By that I mean that the Great Powers have to get together and cut up European Turkey into spheres.

The get anything done three out of five powers need to agree.
One of the problems is that - even if we ignore Italy - we need the A-H and Russia to agree, France needs to be bought as to overcome the UK's propping up of Turkey (at least by Conservative Gov'ts) while keeping Germany as a disinterested party.

 

[Dementor]

1 - have the Balkan countries divide up European Turkey BEFORE the war and stick to the bargain. A large Macedonia could be the result of "I'm not getting that land myself but B or C are not getting it either!" attitude. Hence Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria are all EQUALLY unhappy

No, they would not be equally unhappy since this Macedonia would have a Bulgarian plurality, so it (or most of it) joining Bulgaria at any time would be quite likely. This is why everyone but Bulgaria strenuously opposed this idea in OTL.

2 - have Bulgaria decisively win Round 2.

Most of Macedonia would then be Bulgarian, not an independent country.

Demographically the country would be made up of Greeks and Slavs. There were people in the region who did identify as "Macedonians" regardless of what language they spoke but there were also people who identified as Greeks and Bulgarians. And this is why I feel that it is improbable this can be done with a post 1900 POD. People in the region were already riled up enough. The country that we could take an example for how this country would work would be Belgium but Belgium was created before the Age of Nationalism really took off. I am not sure if a Belgium that was created after 1900 would be a viable state...

There were such people but they almost always identified with other nations as well. So I agree that this is an improbable scenario.

And calling modern day Slavic speaking peoples Slavs is at best ambiguous, at worst outright misleading. No one had such an ethnic identity.

 

[HunterX]

This is just a western Bulgarian state. It'd need to be propped up by some outside power otherwise it'd never have the means to secure such borders independently of Bulgaria.

 

[raharris1973]

I know Greece claimed southern Albania, Turkish Thrace and parts of Anatolia. Did it ever claim anything else north of its OTL borders like Vardar Macedonia or Pirin?

Did any Greeks claim central or northern Albania?