AHC: Make France Israel's main foreign patron

abc123

Banned
If britain and france and israel succeed in the suez crisis, then france may have already alienated the arabs, and thus might as well ally with israel.

Maybe


Well, as I see that, as soon as France looses in Algeria, there will be shift in favour of Arabs, since Israel has nothing important to offer them. And Britain is much more intrested for influence in oil-wealthy Gulf states than in helping Israel.
 
Well, there's an entire section in Wikipedia's article about industrial espionage about French shenanigans:

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#France_and_the_United_State

And on Wikipedia's article on the DGSE (French External Intelligence Service):

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate-General_for_External_Security#1970s

Also, if you look up "French industrial espionage" on Google, you'll see they also steal secrets from everyone, even Germany, and are potentially a worse offender than China.

I'll try to dig up some sources that mention German espionage against the US. I read its one of the most aggressive countries in spying on the United States.

Every country that can conducts industrial espionage include *gasp* the US.
 
Well in the early days France was the main arms supplier to Israel and the country that did the most to help give them nuclear weapons - with the UK being not too far behind, the obvious solution seems to be to somehow find a way to avoid the break in relations. De Gaulle seems to of been one of the main people in France moving their support from Israel to the Arab states so perhaps if you can find a way to avoid him becoming Prime Minister thanks to the May 1958 crisis you can avoid that, although at some point France may do the harsh realpolitik calculation and decide that the Arab states provide a larger financial opportunity.
 
Turkey is Western for all intents and purposes and is closer to the region's energy hub than Israel, and the US has numerous bases around the Gulf.

Unless we are planning on war with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or Egypt, Israel isn't all that useful.

Israel is actually there to act as a US aircraft carrier. It's the only country that the United States trusts when stockpiling military equipment on its soil. Know where the equipment that was used in both Gulf Wars was stockpiled? Know which country hosts multiple active war reserve stocks? Then, there is also the fact that the United States operates one of the most advanced and powerful radar facilities in the world with the tallest radio towers in the world, because it needs to monitor Middle Eastern airspace. It's located near Dimona (we all know that city for something entirely different, though). US warships frequently make stops in Haifa, where there are facilities to accommodate the Sixth Fleet, so it can be used as a staging base (It was almost used by the US Navy and Marines during the Black September crisis in Jordan in 1970). And there is also the allegation that the US keeps other secret military facilities, including a 500-bed hospital, on Israeli soil.
 

whitecrow

Banned
I am curious: if France does become Israel's main patron, will people like Khomeini and Bin Laden see France as "the Great Satan"? Or will U.S. still be the main target of anger (since, in Khomeini's case at least, U.S. and not France backed the Shah).
 
I wonder about Israeli weapons development, or development of French weapons. What would the F1 look like after it gets the IAI treatment?
 
I wonder about Israeli weapons development, or development of French weapons. What would the F1 look like after it gets the IAI treatment?

Take a look at the IAI Kfir. Israeli intelligence stole the designs for the Mirage 5, and then Israel made its own version. Probably something similar to whatever changes the Mirage 5 went through to become the IAI Kfir.
 
Last edited:
Israel used the F4 for long rage missions from the late 60s/early 70s, IITL would they acquire the Mirage IV? Or perhaps the Mirage F2 or G4/G8 would make it to production, I don`t think the Jaguar would be availabe early enough. Would the C160 Transall be suitable for the Entebbe raid?
 

Deleted member 1487

I'll try to dig up some sources that mention German espionage against the US. I read its one of the most aggressive countries in spying on the United States.

After Israel, China, Russia, France, and Britain. They are not aggressive at all by the standards of the top three and are pretty mild by the standards of the top 5.
 

Deleted member 1487

Wait, does Britain also steal American secrets?

Just as the US steals British secrets. Israeli is the most agressive US-ally that steals US secrets/spies and the Mossad is understood to be a 'hostile' agency. The BND is not.
 
Just as the US steals British secrets. Israeli is the most agressive US-ally that steals US secrets/spies and the Mossad is understood to be a 'hostile' agency. The BND is not.

Can you give me a source that says Britain steals US economic secrets? I'm not surprised by this revelation, that Britain is spying on the United States, but any information would be an interesting read, I'm sure.

And I know that Israel has conducted industrial espionage in the United States, but I still think France is the main offender. Take a look at this article: http://www.france24.com/en/20110104...pionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business

When it comes to worldwide industrial espionage, they're apparently worse than China or Russia. They even run amok stealing tons of secrets from their closest ally and EU co-founder, Germany.
 

Deleted member 1487

Can you give me a source that says Britain steals US economic secrets? I'm not surprised by this revelation, that Britain is spying on the United States, but any information would be an interesting read, I'm sure.

And I know that Israel has conducted industrial espionage in the United States, but I still think France is the main offender. Take a look at this article: http://www.france24.com/en/20110104...pionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business

When it comes to worldwide industrial espionage, they're apparently worse than China or Russia. They even run amok stealing tons of secrets from their closest ally and EU co-founder, Germany.
I'm sorry, the opinion of a CEO of a German company is total factual truth? Isn't it much more likely that this CEO is just pissed that his company experienced some industrial espionage?
Now if this were INTERPOL or a spokesman for the BND then I would accept this with fewer reservations, but seriously this is just yellow journalism.

I'll see what I can find out about British espionage against the US. Industrial espionage is usually done by employees of companies, rather than at the national intelligence level, unless we're talking about China or military industrial secrets.
 

Deleted member 9338

I could be an important change for both Israel and France. France is able to keep their support going in Lebanon while supplying Israel. My only question is not air or naval assets. But what will IDF do for MBTs?
 
I could be an important change for both Israel and France. France is able to keep their support going in Lebanon while supplying Israel. My only question is not air or naval assets. But what will IDF do for MBTs?

Israel since the 1980s manufactures its own tanks.
 
I could be an important change for both Israel and France. France is able to keep their support going in Lebanon while supplying Israel. My only question is not air or naval assets. But what will IDF do for MBTs?

I believe that in the 60s Israel was negotiating with Britian to build Cheiftains, which suit Israel more than the AMX30.

I don`t know what soured the deal but if France was Israel`s patron then it couldn`t really object to Israel shopping around for odds and ends.
 
Top