AHC: Make Erdogan right about Muslim discovery of Cuba

"America was discovered by Muslims, not by Christopher Columbus, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has claimed, vowing to build a mosque "on that hill" in Cuba if the authorities of the Caribbean nation grant the permit.

"Speaking at the closing ceremony of the first Latin American Muslim leaders summit in Istanbul on Nov. 15, Erdoğan slammed colonialism before referring to a controversial claim about the discovery of the Americas.

"'Muslim sailors had arrived in the shores of America in 1178. In his diaries, Christopher Columbus referred to the presence of a mosque on top of a mountain in Cuba,' Erdoğan said, claiming the diary is a proof that 'the religion of Islam was widespread' when the first European explorer discovered the New World in 1492.

"Dr. Youssef Mroueh of the As-Sunnah Foundation of America had publicized the claim about a pre-Columbian mosque in Cuba. In 1996, he wrote that 'Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21, 1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain.'

"Some Muslim scholars aside, the same diary entry is widely understood as a metaphoric reference to a protuberance on the summit of a mountain that resembles a mosque's dome or minaret. Moreover, although the first 'widespread' habitation of the Americas is dated around 16,500–13,000 years ago, a pre-Columbian ruin of an Islamic structure has yet to be discovered." http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/er...umbus.aspx?pageID=517&nID=74371&NewsCatID=338

Challenge: Make Edrogan right. Have Muslim sailors actually arrive in Cuba in 1178 and build a mosque there...
 
This is arguably ASB. The only people who were capable of long range, transoceanic in the 10th/11th Century were the Vikings, and even then only barely. Unless the ASBs are kind enough plop down a fleet of caravels in the harbor at Istambul, along with crews, shipwrights and construction plans, I just don't see how this is possible.
 
It's not that ASB, look to the Mali Empire and the voyage into the oceans which never returned. Maybe myth, maybe exaggeration or mistranslation, but suppose there is a great expedition. It could have reached the coast of Brazil and moved north into the Caribbean. A century or more before Columbus at least, though they'd need Iberian naval expertise of the taifas there to do it.
 
This is arguably ASB. The only people who were capable of long range, transoceanic in the 10th/11th Century were the Vikings, and even then only barely. Unless the ASBs are kind enough plop down a fleet of caravels in the harbor at Istambul, along with crews, shipwrights and construction plans, I just don't see how this is possible.

I disagree.
While the was some Islamic Atlantic navigation, Muslim Morocco and Andalus weren't much interested in exploring there. There are reports of travels to what are probably the Canary Islands and Madeira. There might have been some further move around, but not a whole lot.
It is not unconceivable, however, that in the right circumstances an Atlantic naval tradition from Andalus could have emerged.
Question: how easy would be to adapt the skills for Indian Ocean oceanic navigation to Atlantic sailing conditions? I understand that the situation is quite different in term of prevailing winds, currents etc.
 
It's not that ASB, look to the Mali Empire and the voyage into the oceans which never returned. Maybe myth, maybe exaggeration or mistranslation, but suppose there is a great expedition. It could have reached the coast of Brazil and moved north into the Caribbean. A century or more before Columbus at least, though they'd need Iberian naval expertise of the taifas there to do it.

Yes, the historicity of that expedition is questioned. I don't see that as absurd though. However, from Brazil to Cuba it is a hell of a trip still (although the currents appear to be mostly favorable).
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
If the challenge is simply to make a Muslim the first to discover Cuba, it would be a simple matter of making whichever lookout first spotted the island a secret Muslim - IIRC the term was "Morisco".

But to make Erdogan´s claims true... yeah, ASB.
 
Challenge: Make Erdogan right. Have Muslim sailors actually arrive in Cuba in 1178 and build a mosque there...

At some point in the period 750-1000, the Moslem ruler(s) of Egypt and the Levant decides that the Moslems of Iberia and the Maghreb are dreadful heretics and bars them from passing through on the Haj to Mecca. And he may be right about their being heretics. This rule is permanent, more or less.

In either case, the western Moslems are barred from fufilling one of the Five Pillars of Islam. They decide that they must find another route for the Haj, and the obvious choice is to try to get around Africa.

During the next century or two, Iberian Moslems make strenuous efforts to circumnavigate Africa. This leads to development of advanced sailing vessels suitable to the open Atlantic. It also leads to the serendipitous discovery of Brazil by ships blown off course.

The Iberians gradually explore the western side of the Atlantic, reaching Cuba in 1178. By this time, there are Moslem settlements all along the coast; the expedition that reaches Cuba founds a settlement with a mosque.
 
At some point in the period 750-1000, the Moslem ruler(s) of Egypt and the Levant decides that the Moslems of Iberia and the Maghreb are dreadful heretics and bars them from passing through on the Haj to Mecca. And he may be right about their being heretics. This rule is permanent, more or less.

In either case, the western Moslems are barred from fufilling one of the Five Pillars of Islam. They decide that they must find another route for the Haj, and the obvious choice is to try to get around Africa.

During the next century or two, Iberian Moslems make strenuous efforts to circumnavigate Africa. This leads to development of advanced sailing vessels suitable to the open Atlantic. It also leads to the serendipitous discovery of Brazil by ships blown off course.

The Iberians gradually explore the western side of the Atlantic, reaching Cuba in 1178. By this time, there are Moslem settlements all along the coast; the expedition that reaches Cuba founds a settlement with a mosque.

The Muslim rulers of Egypt, the Levant and most of the Maghrib for the best part of the tenth and eleventh centuries tended indeed to regard the ones in Iberia and the rest of the Maghreb as dreadful heretics. Pity that they usually controlled Mecca too in the timeframe.
However, to my knowledge there weren't serious concerted efforts to prevent "heretic" Muslims to perform the pilgrimage by anyone who controlled Mecca (precedents going back to Muhammad being allowed to perform the pilgrimage by Meccan pagan authorities I suppose) except the rare happenstances when really radical groups such as the Carmatians were in charge of the city.
In recent times, AFAIK the Saudi authorities did not prohibit (but strictly regulate) Iranian Shiite pilgrimages, although they tend to find the Iranian Shii Islam utterly abhorrent.
 
. Unless the ASBs are kind enough plop down a fleet of caravels in the harbor at Istambul, along with crews, shipwrights and construction plans, I just don't see how this is possible.

I'm sure the Byzantine Empire would have appreciated the help, not sure how that aids the muslims in reaching America though :p
 

SinghKing

Banned
So- arriving in Cuba, in 1178? Do the Muslim sailors actually have to be alive? Or would the dead crew of a shipwreck count, if their vessel gets carried along on the right path?
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
At some point in the period 750-1000, the Moslem ruler(s) of Egypt and the Levant decides that the Moslems of Iberia and the Maghreb are dreadful heretics and bars them from passing through on the Haj to Mecca. And he may be right about their being heretics. This rule is permanent, more or less.

In either case, the western Moslems are barred from fufilling one of the Five Pillars of Islam. They decide that they must find another route for the Haj, and the obvious choice is to try to get around Africa.

During the next century or two, Iberian Moslems make strenuous efforts to circumnavigate Africa. This leads to development of advanced sailing vessels suitable to the open Atlantic. It also leads to the serendipitous discovery of Brazil by ships blown off course.

The Iberians gradually explore the western side of the Atlantic, reaching Cuba in 1178. By this time, there are Moslem settlements all along the coast; the expedition that reaches Cuba founds a settlement with a mosque.

The Muslim rulers of Egypt, the Levant and most of the Maghrib for the best part of the tenth and eleventh centuries tended indeed to regard the ones in Iberia and the rest of the Maghreb as dreadful heretics. Pity that they usually controlled Mecca too in the timeframe.
However, to my knowledge there weren't serious concerted efforts to prevent "heretic" Muslims to perform the pilgrimage by anyone who controlled Mecca (precedents going back to Muhammad being allowed to perform the pilgrimage by Meccan pagan authorities I suppose) except the rare happenstances when really radical groups such as the Carmatians were in charge of the city.
In recent times, AFAIK the Saudi authorities did not prohibit (but strictly regulate) Iranian Shiite pilgrimages, although they tend to find the Iranian Shii Islam utterly abhorrent.

Plus, the rules are such that Muslims are only required to make the pilgrimage if that is possible to them.

If the authorities in control of Mecca do not let the "heretics" make the pilgrimage, and the "heretics" are not strong enough to force entry into Mecca or wrest control of it from the current caretakers... well, then Allah will understand that it was not possible for them.
 
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