AHC : Make Dubai a major city before Islam

So Dubais rise to fame has been VERY recent. However, the area has an interesting history, it used to have Mangroves, at one point included cattle raising, and their creek has always been an option for smaller craft.

The challenge is to make Dubai the centre of an independent Arabian state, prior to the rise of Islam.

Bonus Objectives - the state founded in Dubai (it doesn't have to be based there) must

1) Control Oman and the Strait of Hormuz
2) Control the coast of the Arabian Peninsula
3) Control all Arabia
4) Control Mesopotamia
 
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I think the basic task is easier than it might seen. One only needs to cripple Iran and ensure no new hegemonic state arrives to take its place - something that can be done rather easily.

Then you just need to ensure that Dubai becomes a local small scale entrepot port for the maritime trade in the Persian Gulf. The others are increasingly impossible, especially three and four. There's much better suited places for major cities in Arabia.
 
I think the basic task is easier than it might seen. One only needs to cripple Iran and ensure no new hegemonic state arrives to take its place - something that can be done rather easily.

Easily done I suppose, but making it last is harder!

Then you just need to ensure that Dubai becomes a local small scale entrepot port for the maritime trade in the Persian Gulf. The others are increasingly impossible, especially three and four. There's much better suited places for major cities in Arabia.

You're totally right - I've made it a bit clearer (or looser) that Dubai itself need not be a capital, just the birth city of the polity that meets these conditions. It could be that Muscat, Basra or Al-Hirah as time moves on.

But it is an AHC - I didn't want to make it TOO easy.
 
How much water is there there? Is it at all feasible to have a city there in pre-modern times?

Not a huge amount, mostly the water in the area is desalinated or pumped in from the Abu Dhabi aquifer.

Perhaps we have an Arabian Archimedes who builds an early form of desalination? (Tilted Bamboo/Wood roof over water, let the water condense and drip into a collector?) Not the best source of water, but would certainly be a novel solution to the problem. This is the demographic that developed the wind tower

It isn't entirely infeasible, there were areas of farming and such nearby - although it'd probably be easier to the southwest (where there is an aquifer), or northeast, where the mountains snow sometimes.

Perhaps it might also require Nabatean tricks, like massive underground cisterns that are kept from the sun.
 
One possible scenario I see is a Qarmatians or similar Shi'i movement forms a state out of Dubai and goes on to conquer Bahrain, Oman, Haasa and then into Iraq.

The Qarmatians were famed for their ingenuity in Eastern Arabia during the 900s, producing a society based on vegetarianism and communal living. There is no reason that a certain pagan cult does not form a state in Dubai prior to Islam and forms a hegemony similar to the later Islamic Qarmatians.

1.) Easily done, especially if you erase the Achaemenids and keep a Babylonian -Median hegemony in Iran. By keeping the Iranians out of Oman, it is made up of fairly light Arab city states on the coast and few tribes in the interior.

2.) Learn from the Qarmatians, simply conquer the coast line, especially Bahrain, and keep either an alliance with Babylon or attack when they are weak (alliance with the Medes?) gaining riches to conquer further.

3.) Near impossible. The Assyrians would not have been able to rule all of Arabia. Further the main points of power in Arabia are in Yemen and the Hijaz, these areas are extremely powerful compared to East Arabia. This also opens up a new front for wars against Aksum...

4.) Doubtful, this puts them in competition with serious powers from the north in the Caucus and Iran and to the west. They will also be foreigners and will still be dominated by trade in the gulf, not internal powers in Iraq and thus will be rejected as the overlords. I would find it more likely that this state comes to rule Bandar Langeh and the Iranian coast than Iraq or Arabia.
 
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Looking into the water problem has led me basically to a combination of the Nabatean Cisterns (which wouldn't work well on their own for obvious reasons), and a primitive form of desalination - probably more useful as salt extraction.

Essentially you have two wood-faced (or stone-faced) channels, over which hangs a tilted roof, with a wall on the lower side of roof - this would force the roof to be either north or south facing so that sun can hit the water all day. The Salt Channel is on the outside, just under the roof, but with the roof angled in such a way that the sun can still hit the salt water. The water evaporates upwards to the roof (probably wood as well - depends on what there is to hand), which drains towards the wall, that drains into the second channel. The saltwater channel connects to the coast, or more likely the Creek (or some larger canal in the future), whereas the freshwater channel drains into an underground cistern that is used as a water source.

Might be best to have it doubled back to back to exploit more sunlight with two salt channels around a middle channel - but this would probably provide some water, and allow the nascent settlement to export sea-salt. This could be the work of our Arabian Archimedes. In fact, I have the idea that this would evolve to be a raised water system on top of houses, but that would require a water wheel and an Archimedes screw at the very least.

So yeah, to make this work looks like we'd need an early development in hydrodynamics - which if it was a specialty of the town, would probably have a larger impact than just making Dubai livable at this point.

----

So using that for salt and water - and fish and any imports (and maybe dates from some sort of functioning agriculture?) Dubai would have access to pearls for trading, and perhaps import/export work. It isn't the most resource rich location. Perhaps goods processing (Import Gems, Export Jewelry?). It could work as a ship construction yard, but all the wood would have to be imported for obvious reasons.

All of this requires stubbornness and dedication (sort of like when Dubai exploded in recent history).

Further afield, in Ras Al Khaimah, there are decent clay and limestone deposits - which could be shipped by sea, the clay more than the limestone, which opens a window for pottery.

For any level of survival, let alone building power, I'm guessing it would have to work to get on good terms with the various Bedouin tribes in the interior, it may be vital as if they can form a partnership with them then Dubai can benefit from the raiding loot and caravan taxation, then again, that could be said of most settlements at this time. Perhaps the early modesty of Dubai might spare them the raids that Yemen or Oman (who would be more likely to provoke the Bedouin), would suffer - perhaps the full agreement that caravans from Dubai will pay their 'tariffs' into accounts in Dubai for the various tribes could give them a level of safety that other caravans may lack.

As a coastal settlement (and after a huge amount of digging/flooding) - it could take advantage of salt-tolerant crops - of which there are a surprising number that seem to be fine with salt-water, or high-salinity o_O Apparently there is a variety of spinach that is salt-water tolerant, and a large number of grasses. The diet of the city would be rather unusual compared to its neighbours - perhaps @John7755 يوحنا is right, a cult could be useful, especially if it has a thing for eating salt-water crops, would certainly stimulate propagation.

The next big option would have to be trying to get a hand in on trade - this isn't that easy as Persia could do much of their trading themselves - so Dubai would need to fiercely compete to get a toe in the door - perhaps shipping incense in from Yemen, and Silks from the far east over sea.

----

Prospective brief TL
-> POD (1) Arab trader from a tribe near Dubai goes to India, where some of the saltwater crops grown there fascinate him, and he decides to bring some home with him, growing them on Dubai Creek. There isn't anyone or anything of value there, so by and large they are left alone.
2) The crops grown there attract more people to copy him, leading to a small agricultural community - and perhaps a cult around the 'miracle' of saltwater crops. Large village, perhaps traders come to trade goods and pearls.
3) A member of the community travels with Bedouin caravans to the Med, learning from Greeks, and others (think a small-scale Ibn Battuta), seeing salt production in other areas - basically boiling water.
4) The traveler comes back, and basically figures out a primitive way to desalinate water using wood/canvas and trenches - and uses it both to expand the arable area of their crops, and for fresh water.
5) The now small farming community has access to a larger water supply, and is now relevant enough for people to notice - using the Creek and the coast as a mooring and trade stop, the fresh water and curious food makes it notable.
6) People in the town start buying and selling goods, to shorten trade journeys to and from Persia, making a small bit of money - and some goods start being processed.

at this point we have a moderate town, which likely has nearby coastal villages mimicking their agriculture - this forms the beating heart of a small state which mixes things up in the region. Now it just comes down to whether it can compete with the other Arab communities to build up a force to start waging war - perhaps allying with or paying the Bedouin. Combining the tricks of hydrology, Arabian wind towers, and the salt-water crops, it would certainly change coastal Arabia significantly.

Sea, Salt, and Sun - An early of history of the Malharab State :D
 
Looking into the water problem has led me basically to a combination of the Nabatean Cisterns (which wouldn't work well on their own for obvious reasons), and a primitive form of desalination - probably more useful as salt extraction.

Essentially you have two wood-faced (or stone-faced) channels, over which hangs a tilted roof, with a wall on the lower side of roof - this would force the roof to be either north or south facing so that sun can hit the water all day. The Salt Channel is on the outside, just under the roof, but with the roof angled in such a way that the sun can still hit the salt water. The water evaporates upwards to the roof (probably wood as well - depends on what there is to hand), which drains towards the wall, that drains into the second channel. The saltwater channel connects to the coast, or more likely the Creek (or some larger canal in the future), whereas the freshwater channel drains into an underground cistern that is used as a water source.

Might be best to have it doubled back to back to exploit more sunlight with two salt channels around a middle channel - but this would probably provide some water, and allow the nascent settlement to export sea-salt. This could be the work of our Arabian Archimedes. In fact, I have the idea that this would evolve to be a raised water system on top of houses, but that would require a water wheel and an Archimedes screw at the very least.

So yeah, to make this work looks like we'd need an early development in hydrodynamics - which if it was a specialty of the town, would probably have a larger impact than just making Dubai livable at this point.

----

So using that for salt and water - and fish and any imports (and maybe dates from some sort of functioning agriculture?) Dubai would have access to pearls for trading, and perhaps import/export work. It isn't the most resource rich location. Perhaps goods processing (Import Gems, Export Jewelry?). It could work as a ship construction yard, but all the wood would have to be imported for obvious reasons.

All of this requires stubbornness and dedication (sort of like when Dubai exploded in recent history).

Further afield, in Ras Al Khaimah, there are decent clay and limestone deposits - which could be shipped by sea, the clay more than the limestone, which opens a window for pottery.

For any level of survival, let alone building power, I'm guessing it would have to work to get on good terms with the various Bedouin tribes in the interior, it may be vital as if they can form a partnership with them then Dubai can benefit from the raiding loot and caravan taxation, then again, that could be said of most settlements at this time. Perhaps the early modesty of Dubai might spare them the raids that Yemen or Oman (who would be more likely to provoke the Bedouin), would suffer - perhaps the full agreement that caravans from Dubai will pay their 'tariffs' into accounts in Dubai for the various tribes could give them a level of safety that other caravans may lack.

As a coastal settlement (and after a huge amount of digging/flooding) - it could take advantage of salt-tolerant crops - of which there are a surprising number that seem to be fine with salt-water, or high-salinity o_O Apparently there is a variety of spinach that is salt-water tolerant, and a large number of grasses. The diet of the city would be rather unusual compared to its neighbours - perhaps @John7755 يوحنا is right, a cult could be useful, especially if it has a thing for eating salt-water crops, would certainly stimulate propagation.

The next big option would have to be trying to get a hand in on trade - this isn't that easy as Persia could do much of their trading themselves - so Dubai would need to fiercely compete to get a toe in the door - perhaps shipping incense in from Yemen, and Silks from the far east over sea.

----

Prospective brief TL
-> POD (1) Arab trader from a tribe near Dubai goes to India, where some of the saltwater crops grown there fascinate him, and he decides to bring some home with him, growing them on Dubai Creek. There isn't anyone or anything of value there, so by and large they are left alone.
2) The crops grown there attract more people to copy him, leading to a small agricultural community - and perhaps a cult around the 'miracle' of saltwater crops. Large village, perhaps traders come to trade goods and pearls.
3) A member of the community travels with Bedouin caravans to the Med, learning from Greeks, and others (think a small-scale Ibn Battuta), seeing salt production in other areas - basically boiling water.
4) The traveler comes back, and basically figures out a primitive way to desalinate water using wood/canvas and trenches - and uses it both to expand the arable area of their crops, and for fresh water.
5) The now small farming community has access to a larger water supply, and is now relevant enough for people to notice - using the Creek and the coast as a mooring and trade stop, the fresh water and curious food makes it notable.
6) People in the town start buying and selling goods, to shorten trade journeys to and from Persia, making a small bit of money - and some goods start being processed.

at this point we have a moderate town, which likely has nearby coastal villages mimicking their agriculture - this forms the beating heart of a small state which mixes things up in the region. Now it just comes down to whether it can compete with the other Arab communities to build up a force to start waging war - perhaps allying with or paying the Bedouin. Combining the tricks of hydrology, Arabian wind towers, and the salt-water crops, it would certainly change coastal Arabia significantly.

Sea, Salt, and Sun - An early of history of the Malharab State :D

Really interesting! Gives me ideas for my ATL :)
 
Looking into the water problem has led me basically to a combination of the Nabatean Cisterns (which wouldn't work well on their own for obvious reasons), and a primitive form of desalination - probably more useful as salt extraction.

Essentially you have two wood-faced (or stone-faced) channels, over which hangs a tilted roof, with a wall on the lower side of roof - this would force the roof to be either north or south facing so that sun can hit the water all day. The Salt Channel is on the outside, just under the roof, but with the roof angled in such a way that the sun can still hit the salt water. The water evaporates upwards to the roof (probably wood as well - depends on what there is to hand), which drains towards the wall, that drains into the second channel. The saltwater channel connects to the coast, or more likely the Creek (or some larger canal in the future), whereas the freshwater channel drains into an underground cistern that is used as a water source.

Might be best to have it doubled back to back to exploit more sunlight with two salt channels around a middle channel - but this would probably provide some water, and allow the nascent settlement to export sea-salt. This could be the work of our Arabian Archimedes. In fact, I have the idea that this would evolve to be a raised water system on top of houses, but that would require a water wheel and an Archimedes screw at the very least.

So yeah, to make this work looks like we'd need an early development in hydrodynamics - which if it was a specialty of the town, would probably have a larger impact than just making Dubai livable at this point.

----

So using that for salt and water - and fish and any imports (and maybe dates from some sort of functioning agriculture?) Dubai would have access to pearls for trading, and perhaps import/export work. It isn't the most resource rich location. Perhaps goods processing (Import Gems, Export Jewelry?). It could work as a ship construction yard, but all the wood would have to be imported for obvious reasons.

All of this requires stubbornness and dedication (sort of like when Dubai exploded in recent history).

Further afield, in Ras Al Khaimah, there are decent clay and limestone deposits - which could be shipped by sea, the clay more than the limestone, which opens a window for pottery.

For any level of survival, let alone building power, I'm guessing it would have to work to get on good terms with the various Bedouin tribes in the interior, it may be vital as if they can form a partnership with them then Dubai can benefit from the raiding loot and caravan taxation, then again, that could be said of most settlements at this time. Perhaps the early modesty of Dubai might spare them the raids that Yemen or Oman (who would be more likely to provoke the Bedouin), would suffer - perhaps the full agreement that caravans from Dubai will pay their 'tariffs' into accounts in Dubai for the various tribes could give them a level of safety that other caravans may lack.

As a coastal settlement (and after a huge amount of digging/flooding) - it could take advantage of salt-tolerant crops - of which there are a surprising number that seem to be fine with salt-water, or high-salinity o_O Apparently there is a variety of spinach that is salt-water tolerant, and a large number of grasses. The diet of the city would be rather unusual compared to its neighbours - perhaps @John7755 يوحنا is right, a cult could be useful, especially if it has a thing for eating salt-water crops, would certainly stimulate propagation.

The next big option would have to be trying to get a hand in on trade - this isn't that easy as Persia could do much of their trading themselves - so Dubai would need to fiercely compete to get a toe in the door - perhaps shipping incense in from Yemen, and Silks from the far east over sea.

----

Prospective brief TL
-> POD (1) Arab trader from a tribe near Dubai goes to India, where some of the saltwater crops grown there fascinate him, and he decides to bring some home with him, growing them on Dubai Creek. There isn't anyone or anything of value there, so by and large they are left alone.
2) The crops grown there attract more people to copy him, leading to a small agricultural community - and perhaps a cult around the 'miracle' of saltwater crops. Large village, perhaps traders come to trade goods and pearls.
3) A member of the community travels with Bedouin caravans to the Med, learning from Greeks, and others (think a small-scale Ibn Battuta), seeing salt production in other areas - basically boiling water.
4) The traveler comes back, and basically figures out a primitive way to desalinate water using wood/canvas and trenches - and uses it both to expand the arable area of their crops, and for fresh water.
5) The now small farming community has access to a larger water supply, and is now relevant enough for people to notice - using the Creek and the coast as a mooring and trade stop, the fresh water and curious food makes it notable.
6) People in the town start buying and selling goods, to shorten trade journeys to and from Persia, making a small bit of money - and some goods start being processed.

at this point we have a moderate town, which likely has nearby coastal villages mimicking their agriculture - this forms the beating heart of a small state which mixes things up in the region. Now it just comes down to whether it can compete with the other Arab communities to build up a force to start waging war - perhaps allying with or paying the Bedouin. Combining the tricks of hydrology, Arabian wind towers, and the salt-water crops, it would certainly change coastal Arabia significantly.

Sea, Salt, and Sun - An early of history of the Malharab State :D

Respect for reps definitely, a very concise post, I must say.
 

Deleted member 97083

Fantastic ideas here. How early could this "Arabian Archimedes" appear chronologically? There is precedent for advanced irrigation technology in Mesopotamia and Persia in the 1st millenium BC. Was Arabia highly populated enough at that point?

Would this chain of events have to happen in Dubai for geographical reasons, or could similar events occur in Bahrain and Qatar? Or Hormuz island?
 
Fantastic ideas here. How early could this "Arabian Archimedes" appear chronologically? There is precedent for advanced irrigation technology in Mesopotamia and Persia in the 1st millenium BC. Was Arabia highly populated enough at that point?

Would this chain of events have to happen in Dubai for geographical reasons, or could similar events occur in Bahrain and Qatar? Or Hormuz island?

Thanks :D

I honestly don't think Arabia was populated enough, at least on this side of the peninsula, for a typical circumstance. That is part of the reason I suggested that it was a son of a trader. They tend to get a good education if possible, throughout history. South Arabia and the Hedjaz had more population, and some experience in water control and preservation if the Marib dam is anything to go by. Add in the Garamentean and Nabatean abilities to manipulate water, and I'd be comfortable asserting that living in a dry desert environment makes it more likely that a culture would develop water control techniques. But the increased population densities in those areas would increase the likelyhood. I wish I knew more about all three cultures so I could understand the early history of those groups and see what would be needed to mimic their development. But their circumstances suggest that the "Arabian Archimedes" could appear as early as 2000 BC (based on the estimates of the Marib dam), but I'd be more comfortable with an emergence between 600-400 BC. Any earlier seems a bit 'wanky' to me.

Would it have to happen in Dubai? No particular reason - I just wanted to posit as I like Dubai :D - Bahrain and Qatar are more easily defended, but I don't know about the topography there to just further. Hormuz - too small I think, they can get enough food via fishing for this to matter to them much. I'll expound later.
 
Now I can expound!

Bahrain is roughly the size of the Isle of Man - small, defensible, but large enough to at least develop the techniques. I think it has the same circumstances as Hormuz - the territory supports a maritime civilisation more comfortably than an unusual agricultural one. However, I wouldn't rule it out, and in fact could be an incubator for such techniques. It is after all much larger than Dubai!

Qatar - this is a perfect choice. A reasonably large area of terrain that if made defensible, via the narrow neck, becomes a fantastic location for a population base. I am unsure as to what other resources they have that I haven't given to Dubai. So this may be a better choice, simply because it is easier to defend!

An alternative timeline, development in Bahrain - where the population density allows the seizure of Qatar, which then leads to expansion east along the coast.
 
I hope we haven't forgot the nearby ruins of Dilmun off Bahrain. A simulation of this is possible, however, I do feel that Dilmun's dominance was dependent upon Sumer and its ancient origin.
 

Deleted member 97083

I hope we haven't forgot the nearby ruins of Dilmun off Bahrain. A simulation of this is possible, however, I do feel that Dilmun's dominance was dependent upon Sumer and its ancient origin.
Dilmun was still active into the Neo-Babylonian period actually. Not sure how powerful it was at that point, but it could be subsidized by some Mesopotamian king.
 

Deleted member 97083

I mean Sumer as the geographical entity, not necessarily the state or rule of the Sumerians.
Oh, I see.

As a side note, do you know if the Qedarites controlled any of Eastern Arabia?

Now I can expound!

Bahrain is roughly the size of the Isle of Man - small, defensible, but large enough to at least develop the techniques. I think it has the same circumstances as Hormuz - the territory supports a maritime civilisation more comfortably than an unusual agricultural one. However, I wouldn't rule it out, and in fact could be an incubator for such techniques. It is after all much larger than Dubai!

Qatar - this is a perfect choice. A reasonably large area of terrain that if made defensible, via the narrow neck, becomes a fantastic location for a population base. I am unsure as to what other resources they have that I haven't given to Dubai. So this may be a better choice, simply because it is easier to defend!

An alternative timeline, development in Bahrain - where the population density allows the seizure of Qatar, which then leads to expansion east along the coast.
Do you think the Persian Qanat technology could be used in the area, or if not in East Arabia, in Yemen?
 
I hope we haven't forgot the nearby ruins of Dilmun off Bahrain. A simulation of this is possible, however, I do feel that Dilmun's dominance was dependent upon Sumer and its ancient origin.

Dilmun was still active into the Neo-Babylonian period actually. Not sure how powerful it was at that point, but it could be subsidized by some Mesopotamian king.

I mean Sumer as the geographical entity, not necessarily the state or rule of the Sumerians.

Forgotten. No - never heard of, yes. A brief look suggests that the location is still in some dispute. But the existence is more important. Could be an interesting partner/competitor/sponsor there.

As a side note, do you know if the Qedarites controlled any of Eastern Arabia?

Do you think the Persian Qanat technology could be used in the area, or if not in East Arabia, in Yemen?

Who are the Qedarites?

And Qanats? I mean, maybe in the mountains, but not in many other places. Most of the region we're looking at is quite lowland - Qanats MIGHT work in the Hedjaz and Yemen, and even in the mountains near the strait of Hormuz.
 
And Qanats? I mean, maybe in the mountains, but not in many other places. Most of the region we're looking at is quite lowland - Qanats MIGHT work in the Hedjaz and Yemen, and even in the mountains near the strait of Hormuz.
Oh, I can see it now. A city state so dependent on their canals that the city becomes known for them (Qanatah). Later, when the Europeans expand colonially the area comes under French domination. On independence, they go back to their roots, the canals and the water flowing through them. So their national anthem is ....

Eaux Qanata
 
Forgotten. No - never heard of, yes. A brief look suggests that the location is still in some dispute. But the existence is more important. Could be an interesting partner/competitor/sponsor there.



Who are the Qedarites?

And Qanats? I mean, maybe in the mountains, but not in many other places. Most of the region we're looking at is quite lowland - Qanats MIGHT work in the Hedjaz and Yemen, and even in the mountains near the strait of Hormuz.

The people of Qedar were perhaps some of the earliest Arab raiders mentioned in history. They were defeated by the Assyrians at several junctions and likely assisted the southern kingdom of Judea against the Assyrians.

To answer, I do not believe they ruled the eastern section of Arabia. Typically they are seen as a Najdi-Hejazi entity by Arab scholars. However, it is possible that they ruled sections of the east through vassals and tribute.

There is dispute as to whether it was on the mainland of Qatar or on Bahrain or the island around. It certainly was situated between Hormuz and its main partner in Ur, Uruk, Eridu, Larsa, Susa, Anshan, etc...
 
Oh, I can see it now. A city state so dependent on their canals that the city becomes known for them (Qanatah). Later, when the Europeans expand colonially the area comes under French domination. On independence, they go back to their roots, the canals and the water flowing through them. So their national anthem is ....

Eaux Qanata

Oh you punny sod!

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