AHC : Make Constantinople an enduring city state

As title really, with any POD after Justinian have Constantinople be the remnant of the Roman Empire as it was, a lone city state that continues the state of the Roman Empire.

It cannot fall to conquest, only usurpation.

Have it survive till the modern day as one of the greatest cities in the world.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
You could come up with a timeline that leads to this outcome with an early POD, but then you'd be 'steering' the timeline to get a desired result. In a more realistic timeline, with a rather later POD - the problem is that is if the ERE is reduced to nothing but Constantinople, the Turks will just keep trying until they get it.

I think you'd have to prevent Bulgaria from weakening as it did as of the mid-thirteenth century in OTL. No Turkish conquest of the eastern Balkans, with Bulgaria as a conterweight to the Turks. They'd both like to have Constantinople, but neither wants to go to war with the other to get it. Then keep this basic situation for an extended period, with other European powers backing up and/or replacing Bulgaria as the western power. Eventually, it just becomes a fact of life that a lot of powers would theoretically like to control 'The Eastern Rome', but taking it would mean war with all the others who would also like to have it.

Constantinople, meanwhile, milks it for all it's worth, cultivating its image as the last remnant of the Roman Empire - almost a holy city, in a way - while using it's inevible neutrality to become a free haven for trade with all powers. Both those factors help to maintain its independence. No-one (in Europe, at least) really wants to be the one to destroy the last noble remnant of the Roman Empire, and you know... a free city where all sorts of dealings are possible is really quite useful. After all, sometimes you need a place to broker a dubious agreement. And there are those tricky negotiations that you won't hold at my place, and I refuse to hold at your place, but the Emperor is always willing to host such delicate events in Constantinople...

(It could be the setting for a novel: Constantinople, a city of spies and acient traditions, of a thousand shady deals and the oldest imperial throne of Christendom.)
 
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ben0628

Banned
Have Timur completely annihilate the Turks in the 15th century (Turks don't escape across the Aegean like they did in otl). Then divide all of Greece and Thrace between Italians and Slavs. Modernize the fortifications, get immigrants to move into the city to raise the population, have all of the citizens trained with weapons/firearms, and maybe give them one or two colonies in the Black sea for additional wealth.
 
Would it be considered cheating if Constantinople controls territory outside of the city? Because it's doable to have Constantinople lose its empire but become a thalassocracy like Venice or Genoa.
 
Hmmm...

The Byzantine civil war of 1352 - 1357 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_civil_war_of_1352–57) doesn't happen (John Kantakouzenos can either not fight/lose faster/not ally with the Ottomans) and so the Ottomans under Orhan have no chance to take Gallipoli. They therefore have no base from which to launch the invasion of Bulgaria in the 1300s, which either slows down or derails the invasion of Serbia in the 1400s. The Ottomans could probably still force their way to Gallipoli, but without a local ally like Kantakouzenos their progress will be slower and they might even decide that Constantinople's not worth it, and instead continue with the conquest of Anatolia. Murad might even look at his father's failure to expand in the Balkans and decide instead to double down on (successful in OTL) efforts to wear down the Karamanlid beylik. If the Ottomans are kept from an easy victory in Europe right up until the reign of Bayezid, then the Timurid steamroller can roll into Anatolia in the 1400s and delay the Ottomans even further.

With the sustained failure of the Ottomans to capture the Balkans, the Balkan states can probably get past the crippling weakness that left them so vulnerable OTL. A Serbian or Bulgarian prince could succeed in carving out a domain large enough to stall the Ottomans even after they reorganize, leaving the Byzantine Empire (probably isolated to just Constantinople) with a different power on either side. This is vital-- with the Ottomans on both sides, Constantinople is screwed. With someone holding down the fort in the Balkans, the Byzantines can petition some Christian country for alliance/protectorate status. Venice and Genoa would be happy to offer either.
 
I have to question the validity of the OP's assumptions. You see, even if it prolonged the existence of the Byzantine hierarchies, I don't think it would qualify as a continuation of the Roman Emp-

schoolbags.gif
 
You could come up with a timeline that leads to this outcome with an early POD, but then you'd be 'steering' the timeline to get a desired result. In a more realistic timeline, with a rather later POD - the problem is that is if the ERE is reduced to nothing but Constantinople, the Turks will just keep trying until they get it.

I think you'd have to prevent Bulgaria from weakening as it did as of the mid-thirteenth century in OTL. No Turkish conquest of the eastern Balkans, with Bulgaria as a conterweight to the Turks. They'd both like to have Constantinople, but neither wants to go to war with the other to get it. Then keep this basic situation for an extended period, with other European powers backing up and/or replacing Bulgaria as the western power. Eventually, it just becomes a fact of life that a lot of powers would theoretically like to control 'The Eastern Rome', but taking it would mean war with all the others who would also like to have it.

Constantinople, meanwhile, milks it for all it's worth, cultivating its image as the last remnant of the Roman Empire - almost a holy city, in a way - while using it's inevible neutrality to become a free haven for trade with all powers. Both those factors help to maintain its independence. No-one (in Europe, at least) really wants to be the one to destroy the last noble remnant of the Roman Empire, and you know... a free city where all sorts of dealings are possible is really quite useful. After all, sometimes you need a place to broker a dubious agreement. And there are those tricky negotiations that you won't hold at my place, and I refuse to hold at your place, but the Emperor is always willing to host such delicate events in Constantinople...

(It could be the setting for a novel: Constantinople, a city of spies and acient traditions, of a thousand shady deals and the oldest imperial throne of Christendom.)
So, in regard to Bulgaria, have either Ivan Asen II live longer or have a son earlier to prevent a regency? Some people agree that it was after Ivan Asen II's death that Bulgaria began to decline.
 
In the aftermath of an alternate World War II, Constantinople becomes a free international city. Over time, it becomes a haven for artists and foriegn expatriates, cultivating a sort of libertine and exoticized atmosphere. Several decades later, an artistic and cultural movement aimed at preserving the universal cultural heritage of the Roman Empire catches on in the cosmopolitan, secular city, and in time becomes part of an artistic movement revolving around neoclassical styles. These bohemian New Romans come to define the global percepion of the city.

Istanbul, or Constantinople as it is still known amongst it's large western community, is often called the "City of the New Romans" and thanks to strong international rights regimes under the auspices of the reformed League of Nations, never falls to reconquest by the Turkish state.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
So, in regard to Bulgaria, have either Ivan Asen II live longer or have a son earlier to prevent a regency? Some people agree that it was after Ivan Asen II's death that Bulgaria began to decline.

That would be a good start. Securing Ivan's succession would go a long way. Mind you, they'd still have to be lucky in the long term, but yes-- that's exactly the right POD.
 
As title really, with any POD after Justinian have Constantinople be the remnant of the Roman Empire as it was, a lone city state that continues the state of the Roman Empire.

It cannot fall to conquest, only usurpation.

Have it survive till the modern day as one of the greatest cities in the world.

You'd have to, erm, balkanise the Balkans. And Anatolia too, most likely. Basically if Constantinople's surrounded by a load of weak powers, it can probably survive. If one of these powers becomes ascendant, as the Turks did IOTL, the Empire's screwed. Two strong countries, each acting as a counterbalance to the other, could theoretically work, although I'm inclined to think that such a situation would be too unstable to last long -- sooner or later one of them is going to be distracted by a war or rebellion somewhere else, then the other country could take advantage of this to launch an attack, and then bam, the Empire is screwed.
 
Would it be considered cheating if Constantinople controls territory outside of the city? Because it's doable to have Constantinople lose its empire but become a thalassocracy like Venice or Genoa.

It depends on the size of the territory - if we're talking a hinterland for food, that would probably be acceptable, but not much more than that. The colonies @ben0628 is pushing it. A Constantinople & The Morea scenario is unacceptable.

I have to question the validity of the OP's assumptions. You see, even if it prolonged the existence of the Byzantine hierarchies, I don't think it would qualify as a continuation of the Roman Emp-

schoolbags.gif

*Launches nukes at Tom Colton*

Need I say more @Tom Colton ? :D

In the aftermath of an alternate World War II, Constantinople becomes a free international city. Over time, it becomes a haven for artists and foriegn expatriates, cultivating a sort of libertine and exoticized atmosphere. Several decades later, an artistic and cultural movement aimed at preserving the universal cultural heritage of the Roman Empire catches on in the cosmopolitan, secular city, and in time becomes part of an artistic movement revolving around neoclassical styles. These bohemian New Romans come to define the global percepion of the city.

Istanbul, or Constantinople as it is still known amongst it's large western community, is often called the "City of the New Romans" and thanks to strong international rights regimes under the auspices of the reformed League of Nations, never falls to reconquest by the Turkish state.

I love the idea (especially as a post-1900 suggestion), but sadly as it isn't a continuation it doesn't count - however, I would just about accept a diplomatically subservient Constantinople in a Turkish Empire (not conquered, simply negotiated), that later becomes independent in such a way. That would be a really interesting city to live in.

Have Timur completely annihilate the Turks in the 15th century (Turks don't escape across the Aegean like they did in otl). Then divide all of Greece and Thrace between Italians and Slavs. Modernize the fortifications, get immigrants to move into the city to raise the population, have all of the citizens trained with weapons/firearms, and maybe give them one or two colonies in the Black sea for additional wealth.

That is brutal, especially since I have to ask who takes the Turks place? Knowing the Romans, they'd likely attempt to reconquer it themselves. But the Black Sea colonies seem sensible. I might even go so far as to accept trade outposts across the Med and beyond.
 
That would be a good start. Securing Ivan's succession would go a long way. Mind you, they'd still have to be lucky in the long term, but yes-- that's exactly the right POD.
The immediate problem that I see is that Ivan was a bit indecisive and inconsistent. Those qualities would, in my opinion, carry over to his son if he were to live long enough to insure that there would be no regency. From what I understand, he was in a Catch-22 kind of situation in regard to deciding whether to back Nicaea or the Latins. The ties that Bulgaria had to Rome would be severed in the latter part of his reign.

What if he were to fully back Nicaea in the beginning of his reign?
 
In the aftermath of an alternate World War II, Constantinople becomes a free international city. Over time, it becomes a haven for artists and foriegn expatriates, cultivating a sort of libertine and exoticized atmosphere. Several decades later, an artistic and cultural movement aimed at preserving the universal cultural heritage of the Roman Empire catches on in the cosmopolitan, secular city, and in time becomes part of an artistic movement revolving around neoclassical styles. These bohemian New Romans come to define the global percepion of the city.

Istanbul, or Constantinople as it is still known amongst it's large western community, is often called the "City of the New Romans" and thanks to strong international rights regimes under the auspices of the reformed League of Nations, never falls to reconquest by the Turkish state.

Then, the whole of Rome splits from Italy and with the Vatican City, restaure Rome.
 
Serbia and Bulgaria stronger, Turks weaker, the City-Empire becomes a de facto protectorate and trade post for Venice and Genoa?
 
And Venice and Genoa goes to war as usual until one fails or Genoa is conquered by a neighbor

Whilst Constantinople bunkers down and comes out of it victorious and the master of Mediterranean Trade. :D

Although, a more serious point - a long-lasting Constantinople that isn't just a rump city is going to be a colossal urban environment. This could be interesting, an army super-specialised for defensive urban warfare could be a really unusual force for the time.

Could Constantinople be an interesting ally as a result? Small, well equipped forces that are trained in urban combat and marine warfare? It seems that without expanding outwards that these would be their military speciality.

Regarding the idea of the "International City", could Constantinople be well placed to be the intermediary not just in negotiations, but in trade? Either to dodge sanctions, or more practically as the "Acceptable Trade Magnate" - rather than two international powers dominating trade outside the Med (for example the Red Sea or the South African Route), the control would be ceded to Constantinople? It would be incredible to see them invest in a Venice/Genoa style trade quarter in hundreds of cities, simply because it was politically preferable, with the unusual trait of having the largest collective fleet in the world, by virtue of the sheer number of trading quarters they have.

Romans - like Jews, but Organised and in charge of Trade ;) Talk about a change in the national character
 
Constantinople would of course be kingmaker for Black Sea trade for any power of any note. This could be problematic for them later as one may simply decide they are better off controlling the city itself rather than dealing with the Imperial court.
 
Constantinople would of course be kingmaker for Black Sea trade for any power of any note. This could be problematic for them later as one may simply decide they are better off controlling the city itself rather than dealing with the Imperial court.

You don't have to be in Constantinople , any point by the strait is able to control trade. Constantinople would need to control the immediate chokepoints along the strait. It's why Venice and Genoa fought to exhaustion over the island of Tenedos at the mouth of the strait.
 
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