AHC: Make A Minor Navy Larger/More Effective Prior To WW2

AFAIK there wasn't one; none of the RIN's handful of major units (bearing in mind the fleet flagship in 1945 was a frigate) were Indian-built, the first domestic warship was Nilgiri in 1972, which was a Leander-class frigate built in Mumbai. Even the two pre-war fleet minesweepers were built on the Clyde. I guess you'd start off building up MGB/MTB from kits - engine industry is likely to be the limiting factor on domestic production but as in many places already mentioned, a domestic industry building big diesels would be a Very Useful Thing (indeed, a thing the UK didn't have itself until well into the war).

Perhaps TATA gets to setup small ship building pre war?

Granted the necessary engines would have to be imported - like the Napier Sea Lion?

But yes heavier industry was light back then in India
 
Not very interesting but Ireland could buy a few destroyers and corvettes.
Couldn't really afford much more without getting rid of the civil war which cost the state twice the entire budget for 1925.
It's a bit more complicated than that, the '22 Treaty had the RN still having control of the Naval Question, in '27 there was an informal naval conference between Irish reps and the British Government/RN. The Irish delegation had some idea of building up to the level of something close to the New Zealand capabilities/numbers in return for the Treaty Ports being handed over but the RN was only willing to discuss a couple of minesweeper squadrons at best.

To be honest due to the RN still having the primacy introduced a level of "Sea Blindness" within the Government and Civil Service that's never been dealt with.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that, the '22 Treaty had the RN still having control of the Naval Question, in '27 there was an informal naval conference between Irish reps and the British Government/RN. The Irish delegation had some idea of building up to the level of something close to the New Zealand capabilities/numbers in return for the Treaty Ports being handed over but the RN was only willing to discuss a couple of minesweeper squadrons at best.

To be honest due to the RN still having the primacy introduced a level of "Sea Blindness" within the Government and Civil Service that's never been dealt with.
The RNZN didn't exist until 1941, you're probably thinking about the RAN
 
The RNZN didn't exist until 1941, you're probably thinking about the RAN
You're right, to be clear the Irish were looking to build up to a Light Cruiser and a Squadron of Destroyers (and to be honest that's most likely getting hulls from the reserve of the RN rather than new builds). Sadly the Army dominated thinking so both the Air Corps and the lack of a Navy suffered.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that, the '22 Treaty had the RN still having control of the Naval Question, in '27 there was an informal naval conference between Irish reps and the British Government/RN. The Irish delegation had some idea of building up to the level of something close to the New Zealand capabilities/numbers in return for the Treaty Ports being handed over but the RN was only willing to discuss a couple of minesweeper squadrons at best.

To be honest due to the RN still having the primacy introduced a level of "Sea Blindness" within the Government and Civil Service that's never been dealt with.
And it was nonetheless a huge issue because the only thing we had to protect our territorial waters was the Muirchu which could hardly keep up with any foreign trawlers at all.
I think possibly a cruiser or two, a few destroyers and corvettes would be plenty for Irelands needs.
Honestly a few minesweeper squadrons isn't bad at all if they could throw in a few destroyers with it
 
And it was nonetheless a huge issue because the only thing we had to protect our territorial waters was the Muirchu which could hardly keep up with any foreign trawlers at all.
I think possibly a cruiser or two, a few destroyers and corvettes would be plenty for Irelands needs.
Honestly a few minesweeper squadrons isn't bad at all if they could throw in a few destroyers with it

It's no difference when you look at the chop and change that the Air Corps went through, I mean the number of plans and have started procurement that went on between '22 and '39. For the Government with the RN still holding the Treaty Ports and the strains in the public finances you can see why they avoided it, while in the actual Defence Forces, the Army had primacy and dominated the limited defence spending (and it was also cheaper given the equipment that it got from the British Army).

As I said said issues still affect the DF and Government today.
 
Perhaps TATA gets to setup small ship building pre war?

Granted the necessary engines would have to be imported - like the Napier Sea Lion?

But yes heavier industry was light back then in India

Why would the Brits do that when the home shipbuilding industry would lose market and whem there is no wae on the horizon?

TATA group have no experience in shipbuilding.
 
It's no difference when you look at the chop and change that the Air Corps went through, I mean the number of plans and have started procurement that went on between '22 and '39. For the Government with the RN still holding the Treaty Ports and the strains in the public finances you can see why they avoided it, while in the actual Defence Forces, the Army had primacy and dominated the limited defence spending (and it was also cheaper given the equipment that it got from the British Army).

As I said said issues still affect the DF and Government today.

Which points to the 600 pound gorilla seldom discussed in the thread: how does one justify such increase in defence expenses in the post-WWI era when there is no genuine threats to most countries?
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
The RNZN didn't exist until 1941, you're probably thinking about the RAN

Sort-of
From 1921 to 1941 the force was known as the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy.[2] The cruiser Chatham along with the sloop Veronica arrived in 1920, Philomel was transferred to the Division in 1921, as was the sloop Torch, HMS Laburnum arrived in 1922 and then HMS Dunedin in 1924. HMS Diomede and the minesweeper HMS Wakakura arrived in 1926. Between World War I and World War II, the New Zealand Division operated a total of 14 ships, including the cruisers HMS Achilles (joined 31 March 1937) and HMS Leander, which replaced Diomede and Dunedin (replaced by Leander in 1937).​
 
Which points to the 600 pound gorilla seldom discussed in the thread: how does one justify such increase in defence expenses in the post-WWI era when there is no genuine threats to most countries?

Actually for this case there might have been a potential opening. From what I've read the argument at the '27 "conference" was basically "help us build up a credible navy and you won't need the Treaty Ports". Given the political capital that Dev made a decade later in getting the Ports back and the self harm the nation went through in the preceding "Economic War" if the UK accepted the argument of a "Irish Navy" defending the approaches and committed to handing over the Treaty Ports at the time when they could, would it have been able to gain support in the Daíl and wider public?

It's a question, the Free State finances had major issues (Prohibition in the States, the Great Depression, Capital spends) but at the same time if there was an agreement before FF came into power would Dev accept it and perhaps alter some of the Economic War and the damage that caused?
 
Someone has to build the last half. But the Ghan is a candidate. Particularly in WWII the US diesels were prioritized for their arid routes because of water concerns. Australia has a lot of lines that go through arid locations. This can be used as an excuse to boot strap an industry building and supporting large diesels and electric motors. Something Australia lacked which would be very handy for building submarines and escorts *wink wink*. The intention is to do this in the late 20s as diesel locomotives become a thing but the basic principle holds.
Better route candidate was linking the North Australia Railway to the Queensland network roughly along Birdum - Camooweal - Dajarra. Opens up the Barkley Tablelands for cattle and was considered more relevant for defence needs and economically viable - but OTL there was no agreement between the Queensland and Commonwealth governments about who would pay for the thing. Although the North Coast and Mt Isa lines were more relevant than the Ghan line, it really wasn't until the post war upgrades and modernisations that even these were an effective, all year round link that could cope with anything approaching heavy traffic.
But also for railbed and track weight concerns
A 4-8-4 Northern Steamer weighed 800,000 pounds with the Tender, and had a tractive effort of 65,000 pounds.
an Alco RSD-1 diesel weighed 250,000 pounds, but had a tractive effort of 40,000 pounds, so could be run on much lighter rails that would not support constant traffic from the big Northern, the rails and roadbed would be pounded into disability in short order. When more power was needed, it was a snap to do a multiple Unit consist, twice the power, but still easy on the rails
Well there you go. And considering much of rural Australia ran/runs on narrow gauge...
Trouble is alot of the network in Northern Australia is going to manage with locos that must have a sub 10.499 tonne axel load at maximum - the C17, was the heaviest loco that could operate anywhere north of Mackay until 1948. So as during the war, just as the Queensland Railways asked (and were ignored by the Commonwealth and instead got the Australian Standard Garratt) - more C17s will do, as its proven technology, experience and parts are more than plentiful.

Also, in broad terms, this is what anyone was thinking pre-war about diesel powered locomotives, excluding rail-motors, the DL class is pretty much it - and that Gardiner engine is outputting about 112 kW (150 hp).
 
Trouble is alot of the network in Northern Australia is going to manage with locos that must have a sub 10.499 tonne axel load at maximum - the C17, was the heaviest loco that could operate anywhere north of Mackay until 1948. So as during the war, just as the Queensland Railways asked (and were ignored by the Commonwealth and instead got the Australian Standard Garratt) - more C17s will do, as its proven technology, experience and parts are more than plentiful.

Also, in broad terms, this is what anyone was thinking pre-war about diesel powered locomotives, excluding rail-motors, the DL class is pretty much it - and that Gardiner engine is outputting about 112 kW (150 hp).

That's some weedy rail for 10 ton axle loading

But the GE 44 Tonners were a good match for that kind of restriction, 300HP with 12,000 pound tractive effort, no MU capability.
 
That's some weedy rail for 10 ton axle loading

But the GE 44 Tonners were a good match for that kind of restriction, 300HP with 12,000 pound tractive effort, no MU capability.
Yup. I can't remember the exact weights - but we're talking in the range of 40lb rail (some even 20lb), laid in the dirt, with minimal or no earthworks and very lightweight bridges. TAL was limited (not to mention average speeds). Also another factor is draw gear strength limits which restricted loads and train lengths on some lines, but I'm at work and can't access my library.
 
I'd like to see the RAN maintain its Submarine Arm between the wars and possibly take over HMS Argus instead of the RN putting it into reserve, even if it requires some funding and support from the UK.

I actually gamed out this scenario and it requires a different Australian government in the 1930s that embraces Keynesian thinking in lieu of austerity policies or at least bipartisan support for defence. That aside submarines can be done and I also remember reading an article where HMAS Albatross was converted into a small carrier, which is an interesting WI and one I explored in an unposted TL that had USN Wildcats operating from the deck during the battle of Coral Sea. Quite a bit of mental gymnastics to get to that stage, but it was a really fun TL.
 
Actually for this case there might have been a potential opening. From what I've read the argument at the '27 "conference" was basically "help us build up a credible navy and you won't need the Treaty Ports". Given the political capital that Dev made a decade later in getting the Ports back and the self harm the nation went through in the preceding "Economic War" if the UK accepted the argument of a "Irish Navy" defending the approaches and committed to handing over the Treaty Ports at the time when they could, would it have been able to gain support in the Daíl and wider public?

It's a question, the Free State finances had major issues (Prohibition in the States, the Great Depression, Capital spends) but at the same time if there was an agreement before FF came into power would Dev accept it and perhaps alter some of the Economic War and the damage that caused?

Would the Brits trust an "Irish Navy" to defend the Approaches, though? Moreover, the Treaty Ports serves as portals to intervene in Ireland if needed.
 
I actually gamed out this scenario and it requires a different Australian government in the 1930s that embraces Keynesian thinking in lieu of austerity policies or at least bipartisan support for defence. That aside submarines can be done and I also remember reading an article where HMAS Albatross was converted into a small carrier, which is an interesting WI and one I explored in an unposted TL that had USN Wildcats operating from the deck during the battle of Coral Sea. Quite a bit of mental gymnastics to get to that stage, but it was a really fun TL.
Prime Minister Ted Theodore should do the trick;)
 
I actually gamed out this scenario and it requires a different Australian government in the 1930s that embraces Keynesian thinking in lieu of austerity policies or at least bipartisan support for defence. That aside submarines can be done and I also remember reading an article where HMAS Albatross was converted into a small carrier, which is an interesting WI and one I explored in an unposted TL that had USN Wildcats operating from the deck during the battle of Coral Sea. Quite a bit of mental gymnastics to get to that stage, but it was a really fun TL.
Was there room for a Keynesian option? My understanding was Aus was pretty maxed out on loans in the 20s which came back to bite in the 30s.
 
Would the Brits trust an "Irish Navy" to defend the Approaches, though? Moreover, the Treaty Ports serves as portals to intervene in Ireland if needed.
Well that's perhaps the larger question, though to be fair they don't need the Treaty Ports as "portals", they have the full scope of the Border.
 
Why would the Brits do that when the home shipbuilding industry would lose market and whem there is no wae on the horizon?

TATA group have no experience in shipbuilding.

Certainly not pre war for the reasons you give - but maybe once the balloon had gone up

But that is probably too late to have any impact.

The best we got from India was the creation of armored cars from US built trucks

Darling murdered
 
Top