AHC: Lusophile China

[Aluma]

Pretty much what it says on the title.
How can we have a China that loves all things portuguese?
Note that I DO NOT mean a european-dominated one or the conversion of the chinese to Christianity.
Rather, the goal is to see how Portugal could cause a good impression, to the point there's a vast interest in portuguese language, culture, cousine and arts, etc.
Before anyone says it, I'm aware of how they saw foreigners and "barbarians" and that Portugal didnt make things easy with how they behaved, I'm also aware of the opposite happening with christian monks sent there adopting many things from the chinese culture, this is a challenge after all.
So if anyone is interested, tell here how you think China could've had a mostly positive view on Portugal, perhaps see it as a source of inspiration and be as open to them as they were willing to be to foreigners without the portuguese screwing it up somehow.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

Pretty much what it says on the title.
How can we have a China that loves all things portuguese?
Note that I DO NOT mean a european-dominated one or the conversion of the chinese to Christianity.
Rather, the goal is to see how Portugal could cause a good impression, to the point there's a vast interest in portuguese language, culture, cousine and arts, etc.
Before anyone says it, I'm aware of how they saw foreigners and "barbarians" and that Portugal didnt make things easy with how they behaved, I'm also aware of the opposite happening with christian monks sent there adopting many things from the chinese culture, this is a challenge after all.
So if anyone is interested, tell here how you think China could've had a mostly positive view on Portugal, perhaps see it as a source of inspiration and be as open to them as they were willing to be to foreigners without the portuguese screwing it up somehow.

Wank a Portuguese version of Matteo Ricci plus they begin importing Portuguese girls for.....educational purposes. The latter was actually how footbinding started in China, was because of their fascination with the feet of Iranian girls.
Edit: I can't find the original source for Iranian dancers being the inspiration for footbinding. I read it somewhere several years ago.
EDIT2: I FOUND IT
Tang court women followed Persian and Turkish fashions, wearing dresses with tight-fitting bodices, pleated skirts, and hats with enormous veils. And it was apparently imitation of foreign toe-dancing groups that originally led upper-class Chinese women to bind their feet. At first it was just palace dancers who bound their feet slightly, like ballet dancers, to stand on their toes." - When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433 by Louise Levathes

 

[Aluma]

The latter was actually how footbinding started in China, was because of their fascination with the feet of Iranian girls.

...A foot fetish? Huh
This is both tragic and hilarious

 

[PolishMagnet]

If the Catholic Church ruled on Ricci's side on ancestor veneration, you could've seen way more Jesuit presence and influence, mainly from Portugal.

OTL, the Vatican ruled that ancestor veneration was incompatible with Christianity, so China took a harsher stance AND it was harder to convert people. Perhaps if you had a ruling that veneration was okay, more Jesuits means more European schools run by Portuguese clergy, which means Portuguese education.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

...A foot fetish? Huh
This is both tragic and hilarious

Wait a sec. I can't find the original source for it. I read somewhere several years ago, was that footbinders wanted to imitate the small feet of Iranian dancers.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

...A foot fetish? Huh
This is both tragic and hilarious

Actually I found it!:
Tang court women followed Persian and Turkish fashions, wearing dresses with tight-fitting bodices, pleated skirts, and hats with enormous veils. And it was apparently imitation of foreign toe-dancing groups that originally led upper-class Chinese women to bind their feet. At first it was just palace dancers who bound their feet slightly, like ballet dancers, to stand on their toes." - When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433 by Louise Levathes

 

[Aluma]

OTL, the Vatican ruled that ancestor veneration was incompatible with Christianity,

Kinda weird they did that considering that adopting catholicism imply saint veneration anyways and the chinese saints would most likely be ancestors

When China Ruled the Seas

Rule Sinannia, Sinannia rule the waves
I mean! Nice source bruh

 

[Aluma]

plus they begin importing Portuguese girls

In that case Portugal can always bring the big guns and start exporting "culture" from the colonies
If anyone asks they can just say "it came from the indies!" and the chinese would be like "no, no they didnt!", though the idea of them trying to find brazilian girls on India is highly amusing

 

[Ben Fallstead]

Wait a sec. I can't find the original source for it. I read somewhere several years ago, was that footbinders wanted to imitate the small feet of Iranian dancers.

I knew about it being imitation of dancers, didn't know about the Iranian thing.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

In that case Portugal can always bring the big guns and start exporting "culture" from the colonies
If anyone asks they can just say "it came from the indies!" and the chinese would be like "no, no they didnt!", though the idea of them trying to find brazilian girls on India is highly amusing

This is actually a very good idea to introduce Portuguese influence in China.
take a look at this from wiki:
" Liu Chang spent so much time with his harem that he abandoned government affairs His most favorite concubine was one young Persian girl he called Mèi Zhū (媚豬). The "History of Five dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" described the Persian woman as having copper colored skin and large eyes. It was told that she loved pearls so Liu Chang ordered fishermen to dive to find thousands of pearls for his Persian lover Mei Zhu. Many of the fishermen died. He gave her a pearl dudou, pearl crowns, pearl blouses, and pearl skirts. He also used pearls and silver to renovate his palaces."

Liu Chang (Southern Han) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Li Shunxian --> A Persian woman who was the concubine of Wang Zongyan
"In the times of Wudai (907–960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia].---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shunxian

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

In that case Portugal can always bring the big guns and start exporting "culture" from the colonies
If anyone asks they can just say "it came from the indies!" and the chinese would be like "no, no they didnt!", though the idea of them trying to find brazilian girls on India is highly amusing

It might take a while for Brazil or Goa to gain population.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

I knew about it being imitation of dancers, didn't know about the Iranian thing.

The specific source I read mentioned it being central asian dancer, and before turkification that region was largely Iranian speaking.

 

[Yuhaoyang]

China could never be really Lusophile in the sense that Portuguese culture has strong influence on ours（like how some countries are Anglophile or Francophile)，because Portugal is ，after all，too small and doomed to become irrelevant after the initial Age of Exploration.
But it could be Lusophile in the sense that we have a very positive，friendly opinion (like today we do of Serbia and Pakistan). I think the best chance to do that is the Portuguese (if they remained independent then，of course) successfully helping South Ming dynasty or other Han resistance against Manchu conquest in 17th century——not very probable，but possible.

 

[Aluma]

Portugal IS very smol indeed, but by this point in time their culture was widespread through the whole portuguese empire, so even if their empire breaks apart in the future(something that having China on their side could help delaying) there would still be Brazil, Angola, Macau and so on as possible sources of luso culture
But yeah I'm looking more for a positive-friendly relationship as well, maybe with a few "portuguese-wannabes" here & there and a small lusophone community in China, but nothing as utterly insane as lusofying a whole country-civilisation larger than Europe itself...again >.>
Also to make it clear I'm fine with things going both ways, specially because it's kinda inevitable, so if Portugal comes out of this scenario waaaaay into sinic culture that's completely okay for me too

 

[Ben Fallstead]

The specific source I read mentioned it being central asian dancer, and before turkification that region was largely Iranian speaking.

Ah yes. Ok, I can see that now. My brain was thinking post Muslim influence Iran, not Iranian influence central Asia.

 

[PolishMagnet]

Kinda weird they did that considering that adopting catholicism imply saint veneration anyways and the chinese saints would most likely be ancestors

Believe it or not, the Catholic Church views itself as the temporal arbiter of all things spiritual. That remains true regardless of whether or not you (or Jesuits in China) agree with them.

A lot of Jesuits were actually pissed off by the decision, including Mateo Ricci, but as staunch Catholics, they did not oppose the Pope.

 

[Aluma]

the Catholic Church views itself as the temporal arbiter of all things spiritual

Yeah I can totally believe that, but wheter that claim is true or not that still doesnt make it more logical.

but as staunch Catholics, they did not oppose the Pope.

That's a new one~
I mean neat that they're sincere about their beliefs, because honestly if it were the french they would just invade Italy to "have a talk" with the Pope or install a antipope and call it a day.

 

[DanMcCollum]

That's a new one~
I mean neat that they're sincere about their beliefs, because honestly if it were the french they would just invade Italy to "have a talk" with the Pope or install a antipope and call it a day.

The Jesuits are not a nation-state and had, nor have, no standing army!

And as to the first point, it is a logical stance (even if the Jesuits disagreed with it and it made missionary work more difficult). The reverence for saints is not mere anestor worship. Saints are those who proved themselves through dedication to the Catholic (or Orthodox) faith and, as a result, act as examples to the living faithful (in addition to other functions, such as praying for the living and interceeding, which we need not delve into here). Although Ancestor Veneration shares superficial similarities to veneration of saints, they are not the same thing: primarily said ancestors were not Christians (hard for them to have been in a region which is being newly missionized) and so they cannot be saints - and only saints would be seen at this time as worthy of veneration. So it actually is a logical stance, albeit one which many would have problems with and which likely set back Catholic conversion efforts in China at the time.

 

[Aluma]

The reverence for saints is not mere ancestor worship. Saints are those who proved themselves through dedication to the Catholic (or Orthodox) faith and, as a result, act as examples to the living faithful (in addition to other functions, such as praying for the living and interceeding, which we need not delve into here). Although Ancestor Veneration shares superficial similarities to veneration of saints, they are not the same thing

Oh that I can absolutely agree with
Catholic veneration is indeed supposed to NOT be worship, it makes sense the Pope would think that's a big deal
My issue was with veneration being forbidden, I guess that's more of a terminological thing since you guys called it ancestor veneration instead of worship so I addressed it as such, because worshipping ancestors is indeed a no-no

primarily said ancestors were not Christians (hard for them to have been in a region which is being newly missionized) and so they cannot be saints - and only saints would be seen at this time as worthy of veneration.

Makes sense but doesnt the church consider some pagans that came before the evangelization as "proto-christians" of sorts, such as figures like Socrates or Aristoteles(who the church takes a lot from intelectual-wise)? Asking because I legit dunno, but if these figures did indeed receive special treatment I believe they could do the same for the chinese(though it would take a looot of work to figure which ancestor fit the bill and which didnt

The Jesuits are not a nation-state and had, nor have, no standing army!

They're on the other side of the planet! Go crazy, burn a house! Jk
I just meant that not every 'catholic' organization took the Pope's decisions that passively like it sorta was implied but was also praising the jesuits for sticking with their beliefs still

 

[Aluma]

Back to the topic:
Could Portugal's fried fish dishes get popular there? Considering the importance of fish & rice in China's cousine