Where could they have got pilots and planes?
If they did does it change the outcome?
If they did does it change the outcome?
AHC Loyalist control skies during Spanish Civil War
- Thread starter Derek Jackson
- Start date
Pilots aplenty through the Int'l Brigades and local volunteers BUT buying the planes was dfifficult due to the arms embargo and the Republic being flat broke.
As mentioned before, France could've fronted them a few squadrons of D 520's and MS 406's and made the attacks on Guernica or Madrid a turkey shoot of Stukas and medium bombers and shown the Germans how blitzkrieg falls apart w/o close air support.
Of course, AdA tactical doctrine and repair/rearmament turnaround time needed major work, which involvement in the SCW would've shown the need to do vs the Kondor Legion.
Whether they'd address that needs is a matter for the audience.
IF they do, then the Battle of France becomes a much harder slog for the Germans w/o air superiority.
Say the US politely ignores the British arms embargo and sells the Republic some P-36 Hawks, P-39 Aircobras or Brewster Buffaloes.
Not great planes, but with capable pilots, could contest the skies with the Me-109 and shoot down a Stuka w decent chance of success. P-40's would have a field day, but IDK if they'd be available.
With the French or US supplying planes and helping organize the Spanish Air Force, it's possible. BOTH coming in to help the Republic makes it a very likely, assuming the French and USAAF liaisons don't confuse the Spanish recruits utterly.
Now, the Republic getting better air recon, harassment of the enemy rear and possibly convincing Salazar that interfering in the SCW means Lisbon gets bombed and the port mined and bombed to uselessness has serious effects. The Germans and Italians were totally dependent on seaborne supplies through Portugal. Cut their supply lines for spares, reinforcements etc and it becomes a debacle real quick.
Air superiority doesn't address the Republican ground forces' sucky tactical mobility, balkanized command structure, or lack of heavy weaponry though.
However the foreign support implied by breaking the embargo MIGHT give the Republicans enough gear and help going from militia to army to effective fighting force that could pwn the Nationalist forces.
YMMDV though.
As mentioned before, France could've fronted them a few squadrons of D 520's and MS 406's and made the attacks on Guernica or Madrid a turkey shoot of Stukas and medium bombers and shown the Germans how blitzkrieg falls apart w/o close air support.
Of course, AdA tactical doctrine and repair/rearmament turnaround time needed major work, which involvement in the SCW would've shown the need to do vs the Kondor Legion.
Whether they'd address that needs is a matter for the audience.
IF they do, then the Battle of France becomes a much harder slog for the Germans w/o air superiority.
Say the US politely ignores the British arms embargo and sells the Republic some P-36 Hawks, P-39 Aircobras or Brewster Buffaloes.
Not great planes, but with capable pilots, could contest the skies with the Me-109 and shoot down a Stuka w decent chance of success. P-40's would have a field day, but IDK if they'd be available.
With the French or US supplying planes and helping organize the Spanish Air Force, it's possible. BOTH coming in to help the Republic makes it a very likely, assuming the French and USAAF liaisons don't confuse the Spanish recruits utterly.
Now, the Republic getting better air recon, harassment of the enemy rear and possibly convincing Salazar that interfering in the SCW means Lisbon gets bombed and the port mined and bombed to uselessness has serious effects. The Germans and Italians were totally dependent on seaborne supplies through Portugal. Cut their supply lines for spares, reinforcements etc and it becomes a debacle real quick.
Air superiority doesn't address the Republican ground forces' sucky tactical mobility, balkanized command structure, or lack of heavy weaponry though.
However the foreign support implied by breaking the embargo MIGHT give the Republicans enough gear and help going from militia to army to effective fighting force that could pwn the Nationalist forces.
YMMDV though.
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Even moderate ability to contest the skies could win the war for the republic. The big question though is which faction in the war ends up in control of the aircraft. The republican side is a very divided camp and I could easily see this causing strife within the republican movement, the government had been a using their logistical power for awhile as a cudgel against forces that weren't communist aligned at the expense of the war effort. I could easily see them doing the same with air support.
Why would the US, of all nations, sell to 'teh ebol Commie Republicans'?
Britain and France had a more nuanced view of leftists than the US ever did, and they didnt support the Republicans, so why would the US?
1) i know the Communists were initially a fairly minor part of the Republican side, but the US has some crazy anticommunist kneejerk reactions.
2) if the US were to sell, on the basis of 'free market' or 'support the industrialists' or whatever, theyd sell to both sides, not just the Republican one.
Britain and France had a more nuanced view of leftists than the US ever did, and they didnt support the Republicans, so why would the US?
1) i know the Communists were initially a fairly minor part of the Republican side, but the US has some crazy anticommunist kneejerk reactions.
2) if the US were to sell, on the basis of 'free market' or 'support the industrialists' or whatever, theyd sell to both sides, not just the Republican one.
Not sure how purchasing planes would be able to compete with the Nationalists just getting their aircraft for free or on credit (and with pilots included to boot!)
OTL the Nationalists had twice as many aircraft as the republican forces, so we're gonna need maybe 600 planes for rough numerical parity, and thats just numerical, ignoring pilot and maintenance skill and equipment quality. Even more if you want control of the skies.
Not to mention they kind of gave all their money to the Soviet Union already, and they would be reliant on foreign aid to purchase anything. Though to be fair the Soviet Union did provide them with 600-800 planes, some tanks, and a bunch of volunteers. They're still broke though, and the USSR doesn't seem likely to want to double its commitment for free.
OTL the Nationalists had twice as many aircraft as the republican forces, so we're gonna need maybe 600 planes for rough numerical parity, and thats just numerical, ignoring pilot and maintenance skill and equipment quality. Even more if you want control of the skies.
Not to mention they kind of gave all their money to the Soviet Union already, and they would be reliant on foreign aid to purchase anything. Though to be fair the Soviet Union did provide them with 600-800 planes, some tanks, and a bunch of volunteers. They're still broke though, and the USSR doesn't seem likely to want to double its commitment for free.
The Republic's loss of the air was just a symptom of their other problems-less equipment and frequently poor training and leadership. If you were to fix that with greater foreign intervention, you'd be fixing a lot of other issues, and the war would go quite differently. About the only way I can see this happening without changing the course of the war is if some leader becomes absolutely obsessed with air power and thus diverts far too much of the Republic's limited resources to it, which makes winning air superiority harder but the rest of the war easier.
By the time of Guernica MS.406 was starting to get into service in AdA. D.520 didn't even make the first flight yet.
The only availaible French plane for most of SCW was D. 510 (top speed - 393 km/h)
They aren't - first flight was in late 1938. P. 39 - first flight April 1938. Buffalo - december 1937. P. 36 - first flight - 1935, but entry into service - 1938. Similiar with P.35. The only realistically available US fighter was P.26...
All in all, I-16 was the best fighter that Republicans could've got.