AHC: Low German, Triumphant

[DanMcCollum]

As the tin says:

How do we create a Germany were the Low German dialects are dominant and form the basis of *German, rather than the High German dialects which were the dominant contributors to Standard German in OTL. How do you think this language might develop?

 

[Qhapaq Inka]

As I understand it, modern Hochdeutsch is largely based off Luther's bible translation, so maybe have a *Luther or other prominent Protestant emerge in far northern Germany instead?

 

[ramones1986]

How about a surviving (and consolidated) Hanseatic League and/or Kingdom of Hanover?

 

[Salvador79]

Luther based his translationss on the "Weimarer Kanzleideutsch", which had absorbed considerable influences from High German, even though the varietie spoken in Thuringia and Saxony at the time were Middle German. This is just one example which shows the cultural soft power of the South, where courtly poetry was strong, where greater urbanisation fostered slightly higher literacy in the Late Middle Ages. Just having an alt-Luther flee to Lübeck might not be enough, especially since a Hansa-based support for Protestantism only would have been too little to withstand Habsburg, Wittelsbach etc. presures within the Empire. (It might just as well bring about a Hanseatic oath of loyalty to a Scandinavian king, if he converted, and result in a Danish (or Swedish) northern Germany.)

The only way I see Low German going strong is for the Hansa to remain united earlier, including the towns we now consider Dutch. Northern Germany simply was a thinly populated backwater, but the Netherlands weren't. Historically, Dutch and Low German are parts of a continuum, closer to each other than to High German.

If your alt-Luther goes to an alt-Cologne whose ties to Hamburg and Stralsund are equally close than those to Antwerp and Bruges, and he manages to sway the rhenanian prince-bishoprics for his Protestantism, too, maybe then you might see him standardise German based on a Rhenanian Hanseatic model.

 

[Theodoric]

The only way I see Low German going strong is for the Hansa to remain united earlier, including the towns we now consider Dutch. Northern Germany simply was a thinly populated backwater, but the Netherlands weren't. Historically, Dutch and Low German are parts of a continuum, closer to each other than to High German.

Not quite. It's a common misconception, especially amongst Germans, that Dutch and Low German are just different local varieties of the same continuum, but that's mostly because they both didn't undergo the High German consonant shift. By using the most divergent continental Western European language as a basis of comparison, the others will look more similar even if they differ a lot between themselves. It's maybe a continuum now, after the western areas have had centuries of a Dutch superstrate language exerting it's influence, but Low German/Saxon and Dutch don't otherwise share all that much.

Indeed, it's very much possible that a Hanseatic power could swallow up parts of what are now the Eastern Netherlands and change only very little about the local culture.

 

[Salvador79]

Not quite. It's a common misconception, especially amongst Germans, that Dutch and Low German are just different local varieties of the same continuum, but that's mostly because they both didn't undergo the High German consonant shift. By using the most divergent continental Western European language as a basis of comparison, the others will look more similar even if they differ a lot between themselves. It's maybe a continuum now, after the western areas have had centuries of a Dutch superstrate language exerting it's influence, but Low German/Saxon and Dutch don't otherwise share all that much.

Indeed, it's very much possible that a Hanseatic power could swallow up parts of what are now the Eastern Netherlands and change only very little about the local culture.

And I still uphold the continuum claim. Klevisch is a good example of a variety bridging the gap between more distant Dutch varieties and Lower Rhinelandish German varieties, which in turn once blended across the Ruhr region into Westphalian and so on and so forth. (The Ruhr variety is completely lost since the age of industrialisation, as it´s become a prototypical melting pot.)

 

[Ivoshafen]

You could have a form of nationalism sprig up much more associated with language and dialects

 

[Guildencrantz]

You could have a form of nationalism sprig up much more associated with language and dialects

Precisely. Along these lines, we could have a more separate northern and southern German identities that could cause Low German and High German to completely diverge as identities

 

[Indicus]

You could have a form of nationalism sprig up much more associated with language and dialects

Precisely. Along these lines, we could have a more separate northern and southern German identities that could cause Low German and High German to completely diverge as identities

Huh. What would be a POD for this?

 

[Ivoshafen]

Huh. What would be a POD for this?

Quite far back, possibly Napoleon to set the concept up

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

Quite far back, possibly Napoleon to set the concept up

True that. Hell, I always wanted to see the idea of several, competing types of Nationalism to emerge within Germany in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars.

 

[Indicus]

Quite far back, possibly Napoleon to set the concept up

I suspected as much, the French Period being when German nationalism came of age.

But like what? Instead of creating a single German Confederation, does he create two German Confederations?

 

[Ivoshafen]

I suspected as much, the French Period being when German nationalism came of age.

But like what? Instead of creating a single German Confederation, does he create two German Confederations?

We don't need that, we simply need him enforcing more a language doctrine with his division of Europe. Naming his sister republics after the main dialect spoken there.

"Confederation of the Rhine" would become "Rhenish Franconia."

 

[Indicus]

We don't need that, we simply need him enforcing more a language doctrine with his division of Europe. Naming his sister republics after the main dialect spoken there.

"Confederation of the Rhine" would become "Rhenish Franconia."

Would that really work? France's neoclassicism in naming sister republics didn't really lead to a bloom of neoclassicism.

 

[Ivoshafen]

Would that really work? France's neoclassicism in naming sister republics didn't really lead to a bloom of neoclassicism.

Well, borders would have to change in relevance to names. Laws and the like. None the less Nappy is in the details

 

[Arkenfolm]

What if Henry the Lion's domain can keep together and Saxony along the North Sea remains a major power in the HRE instead of fragmenting? That would have to count for something, even if it makes Germany fragment along High German and Low German lines in the end.