AHC: Low German/Low Saxon considered distinct language from German

On a related note, I always wanted to see a ATL thread who would have made the 'official german' more based on Low German speak(s)... From what I heard, it's a bit complicated in OTL, a middle german 'middle ground' but closer to High german than Low german dialects-etc...

You already do have one Low German dialect who evolved enough to be considered nowaday it's own language - Dutch (and relatives as Afrikaans). A branch of that dialects continuum...


(And I once made a thread askin about an High german equivalent, like a possible united Swiss German 'official' language.)
 
How far back will you accept a POD. A good start would be an independent saxony. It would remain Pagan and would quickly become culturally different.
 
would it be enough to follow the collapse of HRE with a North German (Protestant) state, most likely led by Prussia and a South German (Catholic) state, most likely led by Bavaria, and make them archenemies, aiming from being different from each other, instead of aiming to be similar to each other...

Another more distant option would prehaps be to let the north germanic duchies declare a independence war against the Emperor, following their conversion to Protestantism, spitting it in a Austrian led HRE, and fairly loose federation to the north
 
That beg a question... Considering the older eastern side of the growing territorial ranges, the Order-Prussia was at least partially Low German speaking at one period, I heard - an 'official dialect' like HRE probably used in the west and official papers maybe...

Could have Prussia somehow adopted before or after the conversion of the Teutonic Order to Protestantism and the rise of 'monarchistic' prussia form of modern days a low german dialect as official language or 'lingua franca', hum....
 
Isn't there like 2-3 branches to Low German subfamilly?
The one of Dutch and relatives, Low Saxon and... Low Frankonian?

Actually, Dutch and Co. are part of the West Low Franconian dialect set. Then there's the Low Saxon (with an East/West division) family, including the more distant Old Low Prussian dialect, which stands apart from the Low Countries dialects (although the Anglo-Frisian dialects were birthed in that portion of *Germany, they diverged from what would become Old Saxon fairly early on due to their isolation).
 
Actually, Dutch and Co. are part of the West Low Franconian dialect set. Then there's the Low Saxon (with an East/West division) family, including the more distant Old Low Prussian dialect, which stands apart from the Low Countries dialects (although the Anglo-Frisian dialects were birthed in that portion of *Germany, they diverged from what would become Old Saxon fairly early on due to their isolation).

Ah, thank you for the infos. :)

Maybe somehow Old Low Prussian could thrive with a different path for Teutonics-Prussia... become a local source of pride, a lingua franca...
 
If someone in the early 1500s made a Bible translation into Platt, and the northern statelets' continue to use this language in churches and in the administration, then the situation might be stable until c. 1900. There will be a problem after 1871, and especially after 1914 and after 1945.

On the other hand, if the language is not replaced by Standard German, then the coastal areas might not unite with Germany in the 19th century, but form their own country instead.
 
Actually, Dutch and Co. are part of the West Low Franconian dialect set. Then there's the Low Saxon (with an East/West division) family, including the more distant Old Low Prussian dialect, which stands apart from the Low Countries dialects (although the Anglo-Frisian dialects were birthed in that portion of *Germany, they diverged from what would become Old Saxon fairly early on due to their isolation).

Continental West Germanic can roughly be divided in three groups, Low Frankish, Low Saxon and High German.
However now a part of High German, Central and Upper Franconian do share some roots with Low Frankish (Franconian), especially in the areas where Low and Central Frankish meets the border is fluid. In fact the whole area with Low Frankish, Low Saxon and High German is one dialect continuum.
 
Continental West Germanic can roughly be divided in three groups, Low Frankish, Low Saxon and High German.
However now a part of High German, Central and Upper Franconian do share some roots with Low Frankish (Franconian), especially in the areas where Low and Central Frankish meets the border is fluid. In fact the whole area with Low Frankish, Low Saxon and High German is one dialect continuum.

Your point about cross-dialect blurring is taken, although I've also heard that some High Alemannic dialects can almost be categorized as a separate Continental group and a possible descendant of Langobardic (additional consonant shifts being present there which are not in most Hochdeutsch variants). Part of sharing the same continent for so long makes cross-dialect influences as you describe pretty easy to see happen.
 
Your point about cross-dialect blurring is taken, although I've also heard that some High Alemannic dialects can almost be categorized as a separate Continental group and a possible descendant of Langobardic (additional consonant shifts being present there which are not in most Hochdeutsch variants). Part of sharing the same continent for so long makes cross-dialect influences as you describe pretty easy to see happen.
High Alemannic(specifically Swiss-German and western Austrian-German) can pretty easily be categorized as a separate language or a pretty divergent and mutually incomprehensible dialect. That's the problem with linguistic separation, a lot of it is based on perception rather than reality. Within continental European languages there's pretty much always a clear continuum of dialects that make it difficult to argue for very clear divisions. North Germanic languages, southern Slavic and Western Romance languages could also be argued (until the standardization and politicization of the last few centuries) as being part of a very large dialect continuum themselves held apart more by political insistence than organic differentiation.

As for the challenge, the proposition that Low German (excluding OTL's Dutch as an answer) as a separate language seems to me to require a different development of the printing press industry in Germany, whether through business or, more likely, political developments that have weakened the "standard" High German and the authorities that push for it (ie the HRE). In that context, it's entirely possible that Low German speakers could start up their own printing companies and a divergent literary tradition is created that slowly spreads over time, but it is also possible that the same happens for other dialects and languages within the Empire. A more powerful Czech language literary tradition within the Empire, possibly some of the dialects in the Swiss Confederacy or in the Rheinland developing differing standard printing procedures, etc. That kind of situation may also open up divergent evolution in standard High German as well, maybe the genitive, for example, ends up fading away as it is said to have been just prior to the Reformation?

The question is what kind of POD would weaken political and cultural unity enough in the HRE for that to happen, considering that OTL even with a wide array of decentralization, such a situation did not occur?
 
You would have to keep the Hanseatic League which had Low German as its' lingua franca important and powerful in the 16th and 17th centuries and also have an early and high quality Low German bible translation. Keeping the Low Countries within the HRE would also be helpful.
 
One could snark and say this is OTL - it's called English. But, in fact, you'd need said language to be in a different country from German ('a language is a dialect with an army and a navy'). So, something like English. Or Frisian (largely in the Netherlands).



You would have to keep the Hanseatic League which had Low German as its' lingua franca important and powerful in the 16th and 17th centuries and also have an early and high quality Low German bible translation. Keeping the Low Countries within the HRE would also be helpful.
This would be helpful, too.
 
Isn't Low German already considered a language, rather than a dialect by quite many? Most speakers certainly think so. So a relatively small POD is probably enough.

More written Low German would be a possible POD, or maybe simply a different language policy in the Netherlands and Germany in the 20th century, not discouraging the use of Low German quite as much should be enough.
 
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Isn't Low German already considered a language, rather than a dialact by quite many? Most speakers certainly think so. So a relatively small POD is probably enough.

including that it is the officially acknowledged regional language in Schleswig-Holstein and Macklenburg-Vorpommern, and in the international (european) charter moderating regional languages it is clearly stated that dialects can't be considered regional languages.

Summa Summarum, it is considered a language, if prehaps an endangered one due to its lack of dedicated media and overshadowing of Standard High German.
 
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