i've always wondered whether or not the Japanese could create their greater east asia co-prosperity sphere without the involvement of the US which led to their ultimate defeat. I'm sure you could have many PODs, but what do you great masters of AH think the most probable is?
AHC: Longer Lasting Japanese Empire.
- Thread starter ManchesterLad
- Start date
well technically yes. but i'm talking about one which encompasses manchuria, indochina etc etc
Indochina no, its occupation was the final straw that made war with the U.S. inevitable. If Japan had backed down to the U.S. ultimatum and pulled out of China proper, they could definitely have kept Korea and Taiwan, and Manchuria as well for at least some time. Taiwan would probably have been fully assimilated in time, like Okinawa and Hokkaido. Assimilating Korea is unlikely and Manchuria impossible, but Korea at least might have been kept nonetheless.
i thought it was the invasion of Indonesia which was the last straw? but i am not ww2 expert. what if they adopted a different strategy. i.e. funding rebels and then moving in to protect asians or something along those lines
Markus
Banned
The final result is the same as IOTL; the japanese occupation of French Indo China and allied embargos in return.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
The Japanese could have survived if they didn't start going willy-nilly in taking the colonies of the European nations antagonizing them and the United States leading them to Pearl Harbor which of course began direct U.S involvement. Their defeat is going to be inevitable so let the Japanese concentrate on their war with China. They can keep their conquests of Korea, Manchuria, and Taiwan while probably withdrawing from China and installing a friendly government. Then they can concentrate on assimilating the locals into the greater Japanese empire.
well, if the US were so anti-empire. why would they bother if they saw japan helping local nationalists and really giving asia back to the asians. or japan at least?
One simple reason: The Asia for Asians line also meant a hierarchy on an international level. The freed countries would under that system be effectively vassals of Japan. In addition to economic implications (weaker access for Americans to name a few), it went against the American worldview.
I've never entirely understood what the Japanese policy in China actually was - I mean it is portrayed usually as "kill everybody" which is insane for China, so what were they actually trying to achieve there? IMHO thats the biggest fail in Japan's imperial objectives - did they really think they could take it over, or did they go for a little bit and get sucked in?
Everything else is logical in its progression because it is reasonably limited individual objectives, but China just looks like a morass of stuff you sink in....er quicksand!
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Everything else is logical in its progression because it is reasonably limited individual objectives, but China just looks like a morass of stuff you sink in....er quicksand!
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
...except where Central America and the Caribbean were concerned
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
As pre-Castro Cuba showed, the Americans also wanted a little piece of the action. They were kinda selective in that. Though the "so long as they're fighting the Commies" bit was fairly consistent.
How about: Japan comes to the conclusion it can achieve military and economic supremacy in Asia more easily by supporting Western democracies in 1939 as it did in 1914.
Japan soundly rebukes German/Italian openings to sign the Antikomintern pact, on the ground Germany supplies equipment to the KMT (which it did, from infantry weapons to light tanks and modern bombers).
General Tojo reaffirms Japan's friendship for Great Britain, and gives Chamberlain assurances that Japan will help the Allies in any possible way, including militarily if it becomes necessary.
When Germany rolls over the Netherlands and installs a puppet government, Japan seizes the NEI on behalf of the Allies (and largely opens the oil wells to the Allies). When France falls, Japan "strongly encourages" the colony's Governor-General to choose Free France and regardless of the result debarks troops there either to "liberate" Indochina from Vichy or to protect a Free French Indochina. Japanese troops deploy along the Chinese border (clashes with the southern warlords such as Lu-Han were common enough). Japan negotiates advantageous agreements with Free France and Free Dutch governments (equipping their troops in exchange for a liberal access to oil, rubber and platinum).
The IJN operates in the Mediterranean (just like it did in WW1), making North Africa a strictly Allied zone sooner than in our TL. It also seizes Macao and East Timor - Portugal is Fascist, isn't it?
Japan keeps pushing for its "Greater Prosperity Sphere" with an assortment of puppet governments (Korea, Manchuria, etc) and of free, but weak, governments in exile (France, the Netherlands).
At the end of the war, Japan is Britain's oldest ally since the Fall of France, and proposes to the British Empire a partnership that will allow it to keep most of its Empire and influence even though its coffers have been emptied by the war.
Japan soundly rebukes German/Italian openings to sign the Antikomintern pact, on the ground Germany supplies equipment to the KMT (which it did, from infantry weapons to light tanks and modern bombers).
General Tojo reaffirms Japan's friendship for Great Britain, and gives Chamberlain assurances that Japan will help the Allies in any possible way, including militarily if it becomes necessary.
When Germany rolls over the Netherlands and installs a puppet government, Japan seizes the NEI on behalf of the Allies (and largely opens the oil wells to the Allies). When France falls, Japan "strongly encourages" the colony's Governor-General to choose Free France and regardless of the result debarks troops there either to "liberate" Indochina from Vichy or to protect a Free French Indochina. Japanese troops deploy along the Chinese border (clashes with the southern warlords such as Lu-Han were common enough). Japan negotiates advantageous agreements with Free France and Free Dutch governments (equipping their troops in exchange for a liberal access to oil, rubber and platinum).
The IJN operates in the Mediterranean (just like it did in WW1), making North Africa a strictly Allied zone sooner than in our TL. It also seizes Macao and East Timor - Portugal is Fascist, isn't it?
Japan keeps pushing for its "Greater Prosperity Sphere" with an assortment of puppet governments (Korea, Manchuria, etc) and of free, but weak, governments in exile (France, the Netherlands).
At the end of the war, Japan is Britain's oldest ally since the Fall of France, and proposes to the British Empire a partnership that will allow it to keep most of its Empire and influence even though its coffers have been emptied by the war.
China was probably the height of Japanese lunacy. The goal was to achieve economic dominance over the whole country, annex rich coastal areas and install a vassal regime. I think they first acctually just wanted the Chinese to surrender, and then Japan would take some spoils, but in the end was sucked in and went for total dominance.
elkarlo
Banned
Korea would be assimilated. Korean as a language almost died out during the occupation. Getting everyone to speak Japanese would go a long way.
While Taiwan would be even easier. Even now a lot of people there are very Japanese like. TV is a mirror image of Japanese, and having just gotten back; I used more Japanese there than I did English.
This isn't terribly hard. Have the Germans pursue an alliance with the KMT rather than the Japanese, and then you have a slightly different Axis (Germany, Italy, and China), and a Japan that's still effectively fascist, but allied with the Allied Powers. The war is going to be quite different, and you'll have to figure out how to get the United States into the war without Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, but it's doable (unrestricted naval warfare ala World War I might do the trick)
China, of course, is going to be a bitch to defeat, but with Soviet and British help, it may be possible for the Japanese to actually subdue it. The war probably finishes up a bit earlier than IOTL, and Japan becomes a founding member of the United Nations along with Britain, France, the USSR, and the US. The Japanese keep a lot of their empire, but it eventually crumbles under the pressure of anticolonial movements in the fifties and sixties, as well as left-wing students' and labor movements at home demanding democracy.
By the modern day, Japan has shed most of it's empire, though it still retains southern Sakhalin, the Korean peninsula, and Taiwan. The Democratic Republic of Manchuria is a constant headache on the Asian continent, and the Chinese Republic is a rising economic power. Tensions with Japan are lower than what they were in years passed, though there is still a lot of tension concerning Taiwan, which the RoC claims is it's and Japan claims is it's. Japan itself has a somewhat less democratic constitution than OTL, but is widely considered a liberal democracy, and is currently ruled by the Japan Socialist Party.
China, of course, is going to be a bitch to defeat, but with Soviet and British help, it may be possible for the Japanese to actually subdue it. The war probably finishes up a bit earlier than IOTL, and Japan becomes a founding member of the United Nations along with Britain, France, the USSR, and the US. The Japanese keep a lot of their empire, but it eventually crumbles under the pressure of anticolonial movements in the fifties and sixties, as well as left-wing students' and labor movements at home demanding democracy.
By the modern day, Japan has shed most of it's empire, though it still retains southern Sakhalin, the Korean peninsula, and Taiwan. The Democratic Republic of Manchuria is a constant headache on the Asian continent, and the Chinese Republic is a rising economic power. Tensions with Japan are lower than what they were in years passed, though there is still a lot of tension concerning Taiwan, which the RoC claims is it's and Japan claims is it's. Japan itself has a somewhat less democratic constitution than OTL, but is widely considered a liberal democracy, and is currently ruled by the Japan Socialist Party.
I think there was a joint Japanese-Korean AH film about that very premise, except that Japan is still fascist in its ATL.