AHC: Less Spanish colonization

Have Colombus' ships all sink at sea, or die of starvation. Without Colombus' success, other countries outside of Portugal would remain largely unaware of the New World well into the 1500s, especially if Spain follows their OTL trajectories into the hands of the Hapsburgs. This leaves a big window of opportunity for Castillian exploration to be set back decades, maybe longer. Ironically, the trickle of wealth from the east at Portuguese hands becoming a torrent combined with a vacant state sponsor might lead to the traders of southern Spain taking matters into their own hands ala Dutch
 
Have Colombus' ships all sink at sea, or die of starvation. Without Colombus' success, other countries outside of Portugal would remain largely unaware of the New World well into the 1500s, especially if Spain follows their OTL trajectories into the hands of the Hapsburgs. This leaves a big window of opportunity for Castillian exploration to be set back decades, maybe longer. Ironically, the trickle of wealth from the east at Portuguese hands becoming a torrent combined with a vacant state sponsor might lead to the traders of southern Spain taking matters into their own hands ala Dutch
Wow, that's very interesting. Do you think that Portugal would colonize more of the New World ITTL?
 
I think a harsher voyage with more losses including Columbus, combined with landing on a lesser Caribbean island would more effectively dissuade colonisation than them vanishing. If the Americas are seen as just a very distant Canaries, initial settlement would be far more tentative. Some incredibly awful people effectively set the tone for contact with Haiti.
 
I think the best way is:
  • Spanish conquests fail, Aztecs and Incas survive
the Incas probably, but will the Aztecs be conquered by others, the Dutch or the French?
  • Habsburgs don't take power, and Spain has a weak and inefficient monarchy, screwing their colonization efforts. This leads to
  • Portuguese-Spanish war by the late 16th century. Portugal annexes the Platine region, Uruguay and Argentina never come into existence
depending on the situation, it would not be unlikely that nobles/merchants/etc would revolt and try to place the king of portugal as king of spain.
Have Colombus' ships all sink at sea, or die of starvation. Without Colombus' success, other countries outside of Portugal would remain largely unaware of the New World well into the 1500s, especially if Spain follows their OTL trajectories into the hands of the Hapsburgs. This leaves a big window of opportunity for Castillian exploration to be set back decades, maybe longer. Ironically, the trickle of wealth from the east at Portuguese hands becoming a torrent combined with a vacant state sponsor might lead to the traders of southern Spain taking matters into their own hands ala Dutch
a spanish republic in the south, interesting. Maybe they will join Portugal?
Does that mean that Portugal would be the one colonizing the Philippines instead of Spain?
Maybe, but only if the portuguese need a bigger region to control the asian market. With the philippines being a center of portuguese ports and forts to control the sea of china+japan
Wow, that's very interesting. Do you think that Portugal would colonize more of the New World ITTL?
my guess would be brazil and the la plata region. Basically everything from the Andes to the Atlantic sea is Portuguese.
the point is that it is very likely in my opinion that if spain is so incompetent, that the king will be kick out and the portuguese king will be crowned having unified iberia. Which will give Portugal a lot of manpower. Or in this case Spain. Colombia and venezuela are not unlikely to be colonized by spain if mexico is not.
in the americas it would be la plata and brasil.The caribbean (or a good part of it). In Asia with more power, Portugal can colonize much more. Africa same thing.
 
I think a harsher voyage with more losses including Columbus, combined with landing on a lesser Caribbean island would more effectively dissuade colonisation than them vanishing. If the Americas are seen as just a very distant Canaries, initial settlement would be far more tentative. Some incredibly awful people effectively set the tone for contact with Haiti.
For the Portuguese this will not work, but maybe delay the other nations by 30 or 40 years.
 
I think a harsher voyage with more losses including Columbus, combined with landing on a lesser Caribbean island would more effectively dissuade colonisation than them vanishing. If the Americas are seen as just a very distant Canaries, initial settlement would be far more tentative. Some incredibly awful people effectively set the tone for contact with Haiti.
Thank you
the Incas probably, but will the Aztecs be conquered by others, the Dutch or the French?
Yeah, you're right, the Aztecs had many problems
a spanish republic in the south, interesting. Maybe they will join Portugal?
This is a wank Portugal, which makes it more interesting
portuguese king will be crowned having unified iberia
That could also be a Portuguese screw in the long time, simply because of demographics
 
That could also be a Portuguese screw in the long time, simply because of demographics
Depends on how to handled. the portuguese king can for example unite castile and portugal and make aragon have more independence. If the revolt of the merchants in the south occurs together, it would be possible to divide the Spanish empire into 4 kingdoms. Portuguese, Spanish, Andalusian (I don't know what to call the south), Aragon.
Let's suppose that the merchants' revolt happens, then we have 4 kingdoms. Portugal unites with Castile for manpower and Andalusia for a larger merchant/military fleet. Aragon in turn will be more independent and will have the function of guarding spain from pirates and possible invasions (castile, in case of a invasion it can give manpower and andalusia boats if aragon doesn't have enough) of the maghreb region. Aragon would also have the function of protecting the Pyrenees from a French invasion (Castile would help but with less focus). basically a focus on the protection of iberia and perhaps conquests in italy.
there would be 4 focuses that would help to make Spain a giant.
Portugal maritime exploration (being supported by the Andalusians, especially if that kingdom has a large merchant force)
Castile gives menpower to make the Spanish empire work on so many fronts.
Andalusia would focus on the merchant fleet more than Portugal, and helping to increase the shape of Portugal in the maritime world)
Aragon would be the guardian of Spain( protecting from French, pirates, Moors etc).
Obviously the 4 would help each other function, but each would have a focus.
With that everyone has an important role and Spain works on several fronts, it would also create greater camaraderie between the kingdoms. which in the end would become a single kingdom (perhaps it is better called the Spanish empire)

1656682352933.png
 
Depends on how to handled. the portuguese king can for example unite castile and portugal and make aragon have more independence. If the revolt of the merchants in the south occurs together, it would be possible to divide the Spanish empire into 4 kingdoms. Portuguese, Spanish, Andalusian (I don't know what to call the south), Aragon.
Let's suppose that the merchants' revolt happens, then we have 4 kingdoms. Portugal unites with Castile for manpower and Andalusia for a larger merchant/military fleet. Aragon in turn will be more independent and will have the function of guarding spain from pirates and possible invasions (castile, in case of a invasion it can give manpower and andalusia boats if aragon doesn't have enough) of the maghreb region. Aragon would also have the function of protecting the Pyrenees from a French invasion (Castile would help but with less focus). basically a focus on the protection of iberia and perhaps conquests in italy.
there would be 4 focuses that would help to make Spain a giant.
Portugal maritime exploration (being supported by the Andalusians, especially if that kingdom has a large merchant force)
Castile gives menpower to make the Spanish empire work on so many fronts.
Andalusia would focus on the merchant fleet more than Portugal, and helping to increase the shape of Portugal in the maritime world)
Aragon would be the guardian of Spain( protecting from French, pirates, Moors etc).
Obviously the 4 would help each other function, but each would have a focus.
With that everyone has an important role and Spain works on several fronts, it would also create greater camaraderie between the kingdoms. which in the end would become a single kingdom (perhaps it is better called the Spanish empire)

View attachment 755044
Interesting, although I think this discussion is now deviating a bit from this thread purpose. But your idea is very cool
 
Interesting, although I think this discussion is now deviating a bit from this thread purpose. But your idea is very cool
more or less, Spain (the union) would have the region of Brazil and Argentina. (the part in yellow). if we compare with the spanish empire in the americas this is relatively small. it would be a change in focus for the colonization of asia.

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VS
1656686692220.png

Asia: 1560+- (ports,citys,colonies)
1656687405512.png

Africa: 1560+- (ports,citys colonies) the blue/grenn/red dots are the spanish domains, the weak blue is the area of influence
1656687468228.png
 
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more or less, Spain (the union) would have the region of Brazil and Argentina. (the part in yellow). if we compare with the spanish empire in the americas this is relatively small. it would be a change in focus for the colonization of asia.
With this different Spain, it would be possible to maintain the colony in South America. It will probably become a domain similar to Canada. We will divide into three states, La Plata, Brasil and Grão-Pará that would form the domain of Veracruz.
Sometimes less is more in the long run. So it would be a very strong Spain. In 1830 the population of Spain following OTL would be 16.69 million (probably it would be much higher if the country became industrialized, will probably double, 33.18M)
The domain of Veracruz if it follows otl would be 6.19. If the population is to follow that of 2X (it would be 12.38M).

SpainUKFranceGermanyItalyRussia
183033,124.132,626,621,256.1
 
There might be a way to do this without changing Columbus' voyage at all. If the Ottomans conveniently experience some kind of large scale succession crisis or civil war at the right time, the Catholic Monarchs could decide that money is better spent retaking the Holy Land or liberating Constatinople or something. Also maybe some events in North Africa make them think that it is the right time to continue La Reconquista into North Africa (not sure what would have to happen there though)?
 
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