AHC: Left Wing English Nationalism

Your challenge is to have a left wing party advocating for English independence as a major force in contemporary UK politics, regularly polling at least around 10% in general elections.

By left wing, I mean in the sense of being economically interventionist (this can mean anything from Social Liberalism to outright Communism), but whilst I'll allow it to be somewhat socially conservative (like the SDLP), it can't be outright ethnically nationalist, so no Front National equivalents.

Bonus points for a post WW2 PoD.
 
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Fenlander

Banned
Difficult at best. For the English to even define themselves as not British before New Labour shows up would require a wholesale redrawing of the political map of the UK. Modern English nationalism started in the mid-'00s largely as a reaction to Tony Blair's pandering to Celtic nationalism (and to a lesser extent mass immigration).
And while the Celtic nationalists could always portray themselves as the outnumbered, even colonised victims of a distant imperial London (which lead naturally to solidarity with left-wing concepts like third worldism), English nationalists can't really do that without looking silly. After all, if you make up 5/6 of your country's population you can hardly be the oppressed minority.
So you'd need something to discredit not only Scotland and Northern Ireland but Wales in the eyes of the English Left so they abandon being British and start considering themselves English. Considering how much of the British Left's voting base came from those areas this seems almost impossible.
 
Difficult at best. For the English to even define themselves as not British before New Labour shows up would require a wholesale redrawing of the political map of the UK. Modern English nationalism started in the mid-'00s largely as a reaction to Tony Blair's pandering to Celtic nationalism (and to a lesser extent mass immigration).
But it is possible that earlier Scottish and Welsh devolution could still have the same effect.
And while the Celtic nationalists could always portray themselves as the outnumbered, even colonised victims of a distant imperial London (which lead naturally to solidarity with left-wing concepts like third worldism), English nationalists can't really do that without looking silly. After all, if you make up 5/6 of your country's population you can hardly be the oppressed minority.
That hasnt stopped the persecuted majority narrative from working in other places throughout history. But granted, that is a right wing idea. But I would suggest left wing English nationalism is not incompatible with an anti imperialist narrative. That view of the world is what led many of them to support a united Ireland. If you get them to apply similar thinking to support an independent scotland and wales, then they are basically advocating for the dissolution of the union and are de facto English nationalists.
So you'd need something to discredit not only Scotland and Northern Ireland but Wales in the eyes of the English Left so they abandon being British and start considering themselves English. Considering how much of the British Left's voting base came from those areas this seems almost impossible.
Scotland's move to the left is something that only really started in the 1950s, though I'm not so sure about Wales. I think its possible you could have England being more left wing than the other countries in the union, if you could far back enough in the 20th century.
 
Um. Both UKIP and the BNP are already left wing nationalist groups in favour of social intervention already surely? Both are well to the left of the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even the Blairite wing of the Labour party on matters economic. Read their manifestos.
 
Um. Both UKIP and the BNP are already left wing nationalist groups in favour of social intervention already surely? Both are well to the left of the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even the Blairite wing of the Labour party on matters economic. Read their manifestos.

Yeah, but I think the OP might have in mind a group that presents itself as left-wing on issues beyond economics, eg. unions, the environment, and feminism, AND also self-identifies as such, PLUS is recognized as left-wing by the rest of the body politic.

As far as I know, besides supporting the more populist aspects of the welfare-state, and protectionism in trade, the UKIP and BNP don't claim to any sort of left-wing identity, and quite openly degrade various groups and interests usually considered a sine qua non of any legitimate left-wing coalition.

A model for what the OP is looking for might be the Parti Quebecois under Rene Levesque, which was Quebec nationalist, but also pro-union, pro-feminist, pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-secularist, pro-expansion of the welfare state, and, while suspicious of multiculturalism as government policy, usually paid at least lip service to the idea of cultural and racial tolerance. I don't think the UKIP, and certainly not the BNP, would fit most of the items on that list.
 
Actually, it depends on the definition of "left wing". True collectivists tend to be anti-gay (as in Stalin who believed in providing them with a bullet to the back of the head, Lenin, Mao and Pol Pot were not big fans either) and anti-feminist as these are manifestations of bourgeois individualism and false consciousness. Unions are a tool of the ruling elite to divert revolutionary sentiment. Not all left wing regimes are pro-choice either, Nicolae Ceaucescu's certainly was not and most of the other Eastern European regimes weren't keen on making contraceptives readily available (which is why they had lots of abortions). Idea was that your body and your children weren't entirely your own, the wider society also had claims.

Lip service to cultural and racial tolerance yes (but tended to be only lip service).
UKIP does also pay lip service to the idea of cultural and racial tolerance.
UKIP and BNP also pro expansion of the welfare state
Most of the ideas that you characterise as "left wing" would come under the "liberal" rather than "left wing" spectrum of ideas. That individualism and personal development should at least equal the demands of society as a collective body
 
Well, let me fine-tune my original statement. I wrote...

PLUS is recognized as left-wing by the rest of the body politic

I'll amend that with "...and accepted as left-wing by the contemporary mainstream left."

Any Stalinist or Maoist who was preaching anti-feminist, anti-contraception, and anti-gay rhetoric today would be persona non grata to the mainstream western left, given how widely accepted sexual and glbqt equality are on that side of the political spectrum(and yes, that could be partly because of the influence of liberal individualism on the left). So, even if the UKIP technically qualifies as left-wing under the libertarian defintion of "collectivist = left-wing"(which I don't accept, but that's another discussion), they are almost certainly not getting any significant number of votes from people with a strong commitment to the left as currently understood.

I can't really speak for the OP, but I'm kind of guessing that what he's looking for is a party that subscribes to most or all of the things that the mainstream left subscribes to, AND is English nationalist. Admittedly, if he's willing to accept anyone with a collectivist vision as being left-wing, that makes his challenge a lot easier.
 
I can't really speak for the OP, but I'm kind of guessing that what he's looking for is a party that subscribes to most or all of the things that the mainstream left subscribes to, AND is English nationalist. Admittedly, if he's willing to accept anyone with a collectivist vision as being left-wing, that makes his challenge a lot easier.
More or less. Many parties can be defined as collectivist, what is more important to one being seen as left wing is that it defines membership of the collective on a broader basis, whereas some ethnically nationalist parties like the FN or the BNP will be in favour of economic intervention only so far as it applies to people like them,for example advocating defunding state education of foreign children, which is why I made a caveat against them in my OP.

I'll allow parties that are socially conservative in some respects but whose ideology is primarily based on what are understood to be left wing principles, such as Communists, but I doubt anyone is going to engineer a scenario where an English Nationalist Maoist party is getting over 10% of the vote in modern Britain.
Um. Both UKIP and the BNP are already left wing nationalist groups in favour of social intervention already surely? Both are well to the left of the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even the Blairite wing of the Labour party on matters economic. Read their manifestos.
UKIP are a party that is largely composed of those inclined toward Thatcherism, appealing to those who are economically left wing but socially conservative. As a result there 2015 manifesto was probably more economically to the left than there membership, but I still wouldn't call them economically interventionist. They pledged to scrap inheritance tax, bring down the top rate of tax to 40%, end 'green taxes' to cut fuel bills, lower the benefit cap, and eliminate the deficit on the same schedule the Tories pledged too.

The 2010 manifesto included things like school vouchers and shrinking the state to the size it was in 1997. Even there main 2015 pledge when it came to redistribution, raising the tax threshold to £13,500, was probably more economically liberal than interventionist. Granted, there were a few somewhat left wing ideas in there, but not nearly as many as right wing ones, and some of it was collectivist only when it meant taking away from another group, for example, there pledge to cut most of the foreign aid budget and spend it on the NHS.

The BNP is arguably more interventionist, but mainly in that same sense, increasing welfare provision for those who are part of their more narrowly defined collective and taking away from those who aren't. In any case, they come under 'outright ethnically nationalist' with there pledges to deport immigrant and ban building of mosques, which is why I said no Front National equivalents.

So what I am looking for is a party that is generally accepted as left wing by most commentators and the mainstream left, whilst also being civic nationalists.
 
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So what I am looking for is a party that is generally accepted as left wing by most commentators and the mainstream left, whilst also being civic nationalists.

The only thing I can really think of is an English nationalism that defines its oppressor as the USA, and somehow manages to construe the United Kingdom itself as a Yankee puppet, enforcing America's anti-English agenda.

So, being anti-American probably puts them into the left-wing camp, if only at first by default. And they'd probably try to adopt the rest of the conventional left-wing program, since anti-Americanism and social conservativism would cancel themselves out, electorally speaking.

The difficulty, of course, would be how the dominant power in the Kingdom could see the minions as on the side of the oppressors. Enoch Powell was apparently known to get all weepy-eyed about how poor little England was getting hammered by the evil Americans and their IRA foot soldiers, but he was a bit of a crank, and probably couldn't have sold that narrative to much of the British left(who, Boston sugar-daddies aside, would have had at least a theoretical sympathy with Northern Irish Catholics).

(Edit to separate quote from rest of post)
 
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Nationalism is prompted by perceived threats to the interests of a certain nation or ethnic group. Contemporary English nationalists (e.g. the English Democrats) focus on the British policy of asymmetric devolution - i.e. levels of devolution vary depending upon the level of separatism in each country - as their reason for English nationalism. The argument is (quite reasonably, in my view) that England is deserving of the same self-government as Scotland, a belief rooted in the fact that the devolved administrations appear to have a 'voice' in the media while England relies solely upon Westminster and the UK government for representation in the media and to the other three countries of the Union.

The means of making a leftist English nationalist part requires making English nationalism more mainstream (i.e. so that the political spectrum of English nationalism extends even to the left). The best way to achieve this would be to create a sense of the English being a 'persecuted majority'. Perhaps a series of Scottish Prime Ministers, ideally on the right of centre (to generate leftist resentment) could appoint a largely Scottish cabinet and play favourites with Scotland being a priority over the other three nations. If Scotland is perceived to have preferential treatment (one reason for the current increase in English nationalism) for an extended period, you have a much better chance of making English nationalism mainstream and extend to the left.

I'd also mention that one hypothesised reason for Labour's defeat in the 2015 election was a fear amongst the English that Labour would enter into coalition with the SNP, subsequently being beholden to the much more assertive Nicola Sturgeon and making further concessions to Scotland at the expense of England. If you could reverse the situation with the Conservatives in Labour's situation (not necessarily at the same time or with the same characters), you could see Labour following an 'English nationalist' set of policies (e.g. fiscal independence for the four nations).
 
I'd also mention that one hypothesised reason for Labour's defeat in the 2015 election was a fear amongst the English that Labour would enter into coalition with the SNP, subsequently being beholden to the much more assertive Nicola Sturgeon and making further concessions to Scotland at the expense of England. If you could reverse the situation with the Conservatives in Labour's situation (not necessarily at the same time or with the same characters), you could see Labour following an 'English nationalist' set of policies (e.g. fiscal independence for the four nations).
Its possible that party could go down that road in the future too disassociate itself from the SNP, if you managed to get them to the strength they are now far earlier, then maybe it could have happened already. But that would probably be just as a political tool, not necessarily a genuinely held belief, so I doubt it would have the potential to evolve into full throated separatism.
The means of making a leftist English nationalist part requires making English nationalism more mainstream (i.e. so that the political spectrum of English nationalism extends even to the left). The best way to achieve this would be to create a sense of the English being a 'persecuted majority'. Perhaps a series of Scottish Prime Ministers, ideally on the right of centre (to generate leftist resentment) could appoint a largely Scottish cabinet and play favourites with Scotland being a priority over the other three nations. If Scotland is perceived to have preferential treatment (one reason for the current increase in English nationalism) for an extended period, you have a much better chance of making English nationalism mainstream and extend to the left.
That might play a part, but another important factor to add in would be the perception that Scottish voters were keeping the left out of power. If it were somehow possible to make the Conservatives or another right leaning party largely dominant in Scotland (and ideally Wales too), to the point that they frequently ensure a right wing government, then maybe left wing economic nationalism would be more plausible. The difficulty of course is in turning Scotland to the right, which is an idea that has already been considered on this board before. Maybe have sectarianism escalate to the point that Scottish politics become Ulsterised. Alternatively, I wonder if, without Nazism, the SNP could become a qausi-fascist party. Apparently Plaid leaned this way in its early years, not sure how plausible for the SNP had it not been discredited.

I'd also say that it is possible for English Nationalism to evolve whilst left wing variants still exist in other countries in the union. English leftists frequently supported a united Ireland during the troubles, maybe if a similiar situation evolved in Scotland and Wales, then they could advocate doing away with the union altogether, and in times they would realise that their position as English nationalists was rather popular and they begin to make more of a big deal out of it.

Another way, and probably the most difficult, would be too have it succeed on the coattails of the SNP's popularity with some in England. Many in England (though clearly a minority) expressed regret that they could not vote for Nicola Sturgeon in 2015. Maybe the SNP and Plaid feel some need to ally themselves in a more formal way across the UK and a relatively obscure English equivalent is created, which gains in profile from a few left wing defections and sympathy for the SNP's progressive ideals south of the border. All of that seems quite difficult, admittedly.
 
I've been thinking about English devolution a lot recently especially one the is centre left (economically left, socially conservative) the problem is is that English nationalism has become a dirty word thanks to far right groups and New Labour.

I think the key to achieving English devolution is to obviously first start a party equivalent to the SNP and Plaid Cymru, perhaps it could be called: The English Progressives party.

The next thing to do is make it firmly clear that the devolved English Parliament will be outside London, perhaps a city like York or Bristol, somewhere progressive and liberal, Cambridge would be another good choice but its quite near London still.

Next do deals with medium sized progressive parties like the Green Party and another deal with the Lib Dems, even reach out to UKIP moderates and definitely do deals with
The SNP and Plaid Cymru, we're all aiming for the same goal and the SNP do support a devolved English Parliament.

To unite both sides of the spectrum (moderates that it) make it clear that the Tories have taken industries and jobs away from the poorest parts of England and point out that Labour, rather than trying to reach out to these people, they wanted to take away the one thing they had left - Their national identity all the while supporting Celtic nationalism and ignoring and dirtying English nationalism.

I think such a party could have huge support locally then nationally provided it keeps left of centre, once this is done
Then have the regions of England become further devolved
ie: Yorkshire, Cornwall, The Midlands etc
 
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