AHC: Lay the groundwork for largest possible European nation-state

Deleted member 148213

Essentially, OTL Europe has no clear ethnic majority; for most of history, the French and the Germans both were above 20% of the continent's population, but even 25% is a rather small fraction, and as we can see OTL, this was insufficient to dominate continental Europe.

The goal here is to change that- with a POD after 350 AD, change the late classical period and early middle ages such that an ethnic group in Europe comprises a larger share of the continent's populations than French or Germans ever did OTL.

To clarify some things:
First, I realize that in the middle ages, the concept of ethnicity was not the same as in our time, and the concept of "nationality" as in German or French was absent, but that isn't the point- the point is to lay down the cultural amd linguisitc groundwork in Europe that may allow for this larger state to form sometime in the future ITL.

Secondly, if Russia is included, it is very easy to simply include Belarus and Ukraine within it and quickly achieve this requirement- a state of that size in Eastern Europe is obviously a very formidable power in Europe at large, as the past two centuries have shown, but for the sake of novelty, this path of just having a really large East Slavic nation will not count.
 
The goal here is to change that- with a POD after 350 AD, change the late classical period and early middle ages such that an ethnic group in Europe comprises a larger share of the continent's populations than French or Germans ever did OTL.
This or a continued Frankish empire
Yeah, combining the Germans and French populations into a single ethnic group is the only way to really do it.
 

Deleted member 148213

Yeah, combining the Germans and French populations into a single ethnic group is the only way to really do it.
Perhaps then the POD may be some further intrusion of the Romance languages into the Rhineland?

It seems like even today, the rhineland is the most populous and productive region of North-Western Europe, if it were the core of a state rather than the disputed borderlands, maybe it would have enough political gravity to rope in Aquitaine/South France and most of what is OTL Germany.

Now this could feasibly include around 50% of the European population, I think.
 
A successful centralization for the Hohenstaufens with its territory at the time of Frederick II is a pretty strong contender.

Germany, Italy(sans Papacy, although that would likely be subjugated to HRE aswell in a victorious Hohenstaufen TL), Bohemia, Austria, Netherlands, Burgundy.

Assuming the subjugation of the Papacy avoids Protestantism(although Catholicism will likely splinter by realms) it should also avoid the 30years war(iirc like a 1/3 of Germany's population at the time died).

I can see it reaching 50% of Europe's total population.

Ofc, something like Charlemagne's empire succeding is obviously even better, but i wanted to put up a candidate later in the timeline.
 
Well, taking inspiration from ck2, would it be possible for a Mongol conquest to extend far further east than history records, and then getting cut off from their origins form something akin to the Golden Horde in Europe? Should fit the criteria given that we're discussing an ethnic group in Europe rather than one originating from said continent.
 

Deleted member 148213

Well, taking inspiration from ck2, would it be possible for a Mongol conquest to extend far further east than history records, and then getting cut off from their origins form something akin to the Golden Horde in Europe? Should fit the criteria given that we're discussing an ethnic group in Europe rather than one originating from said continent.
Mongols aren't populous enough- compared to the native Europeans they are very small in size. The only way this works is if tgey somehow managed to "Mongolize" their conquest which both requires an ASB sized Mongol incursion into Europe, and ASB Mongolization of a large swathe of Europe to meet the requirement of the scenario.
 
A Merovingian Frankish Empire could technically become this, since France and Germany are united into a single Francia with an ethnic group that could vastly eclipse every other state in Europe, perhaps even Rhomania as well. The Carolingians could also become this but they need to be a bit luckier with their successors to maintain their vast territories under a single ruler.
 
Our best model for this is China. You really want a region-wide empire to break up and for successors with overlapping territory to claim to be the reformed empire. This sort of happened but the HRE never quite did the same as its Chinese counterparts.


Perhaps if you get the Romans to last longer and to expand to the Oder as Germany gets deforested. The Latin speaking area then covers what will become Europe's agricultural core. Then have a successor state with similar territory to the Carolingians to hold together and make a genuine second Roman Empire. They could then expand civilization and vulgar Latin out into Eastern Europe.
 
Our best model for this is China. You really want a region-wide empire to break up and for successors with overlapping territory to claim to be the reformed empire. This sort of happened but the HRE never quite did the same as its Chinese counterparts.


Perhaps if you get the Romans to last longer and to expand to the Oder as Germany gets deforested. The Latin speaking area then covers what will become Europe's agricultural core. Then have a successor state with similar territory to the Carolingians to hold together and make a genuine second Roman Empire. They could then expand civilization and vulgar Latin out into Eastern Europe.
You very much need to avoid the schismatic nature of Christianity. A reuniting of the two churches would go along way toward maintaining cultural unity.

The Byzantines having a more permanent position in Italy could help. Once the Byzantines were driven off the alienation between the "Latins" and the "Greeks" intensified
 
The Guises inherit France, and then marry into the Hapsburgs. A scion of this family ends up King of Poland, and voila.
 
Perhaps the different Romance-soeaking peoples remain not just politically United but consider themselves members of a single ethnic group?
 
The Mongols rape and pillage their way to the Rhine, but aren't able to sustain their rule, and the ensuing power vacuum is filled by a king of an unconquered state.
 
You very much need to avoid the schismatic nature of Christianity. A reuniting of the two churches would go along way toward maintaining cultural unity.

If we are talking Western Europe, the schisms are a lot less likely to happen in this scenario, no? New denominations rarely get off the ground without state sponsorship. The driver of the Reformation was thus not Martin Luther nailing paper to a door, but the queue of German princes lining up to endorse him and split from the meddling control of the Pope. This dynamic all came from Europe's unusual situation of a powerful Empire organized religion and religious head being followed as an official religion by states outside his political control. If the Roman Empire is genuinely reformed, the Pope comes under control of the Emperor and Caesaropapism is the likely result. Thus no splits can get state sponsorship and likely don't go anywhere.
 
Have the Black Plague hit the same areas as OTL but with double the fatalities. Only a few nationalities remain with vastly different borders and Europe suddenly looks a lot more Polish, Prussian, Czech, Basque, and Milanese.
 
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It’s a bit of a stretch but maybe a few things could be changed so that Samo’s Empire outlives him by at least a bit. In particular have him adopt one strand of Christianity (or inaugurate his own). This then lays the ground for an ideological pan-Salvism that ends up by 2020 with a single Slavia stretching from the western Balkans to the Ural Mountains
 
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