AHC: Latest possible Nazi defeat

Just like in the earlier thread, only this time prolong instead of shorten the war in Europe.

POD can be any time after the Soviets have linked up at Kalach, trapping 6th army around Stalingrad. No Op. Vegetarian or the like, and no bumping off Stalin or a Soviet political collapse and descent into civil war.

For the purpose of the thread, let's assume that one or more of the many ways discussed around here to delay the manhattan project takes place.

Latest allied victory wins.
 
Realistic:
One of germany's hare-brained schemes for advanced air defense actually works, and the Alies don't deliberately or accidentally stamp on it before it goes live. Also Hitler doesn't screw it up. With allied heavy bombing (and thus nukes) taken out of the picture, Germany is in a good position to last longer.

Though not much longer. Russia is still grinding slowly westwards, and the allies have huge numbers of light-bombers, fighter bombers, and fighters. Maybe this could extend the war into 1946. 1947 at the latest, as in absense of anything else working, the B-36 will almost certainly have been pushed into service by then. B-36 plus Nukes is an unwinnable situation for Germany.

Semi realistic:
Japan discovers oil in Manchuria. A lot of it. Risky plans for Pearl Harbour and the colonial pacific are shelved indefinately. With suddenly more resources than they can use in a hundred years, Japan is suddenly feeling sated, and tells Nazi Germany where to get off. It becomes somewhat ameanable to American demands to cease military expansion, and the two nations enter into a cold war. Imperial Japan even begins to trade with britain at extortionate rates for supplies Britain desperately needs. This cements American isolationism and they never join the european war. With no America=>Russia lend lease, but more British Imperial forces, maybe the war drags into 1948 or 1949.

Unrealistic:
Of course the best way to prolong the war would be for Hitler to not cross the Polish Border. Or at least not to do so without genuine Polish permission. Say he persuades Stalin to go first, then during the 'unprovoked invasion', offers Poland a deal and immediately launches Barbarossa. Britain and France would be in a difficult position of wanting to attack Germany, but with Poland asking them to fight alongside Germany. Hitler then twiddles his mustache and claims this was his xantos gambit all along... While alien space bats cavort with fantastical sealions in the background. With the British Navy permanantly stationed off Poland, and a leigon of French troops stationed there for protection, the Germans did not have quite the free hand they did OTL. German occupation of Russia is still ongoing. Officially that part of the war has never ended, and most analysists agree it will drag on in one form or another for another 60 years.
 
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Realistically:
One of germany's hare-brained schemes for advanced air defense actually works, and the Alies don't deliberately or accidentally stamp on it before it goes live. Also Hitler doesn't screw it up.

What scheme do you have in mind exactly ?


Also, as to my take:

Soviets overextend themselves trying to both stop Mansteins relief force and get to Rostov at the same time. They achieve neither and most of the 6th army escapes. Von Paulus either stays behind or is court-martialled and shot.

More effort put into Stalingrad means the Germans have written of Tunisia. Thus no quarter million men trapped and no free training for US forces, plus Fredendall is still in charge.

With more troops in Sicily and the americans inexperienced and led by an idiot, op. Husky ends in disaster. The allies spend the rest of 1943 conquering Sardinia and Corsica and may or may not succeed in occupying some worthless Greek islands.

On the eastern front, Mansteins backhand blow works a couple of times untill the soviets wisen up to it. From then on, the germans adopt an even more defensive mindset and don't even launch Citadell. They do however execute a succesfull Operation Eisenhammer (beeing closer to Moscow and all). Work on the Panther-Wotan Line starts earlier, also helping a bit. Month by month, soviet manpower shortages become ever more severe, while Hitler somehow wisens up and stops using "no retreat" orders when the situation is clearly unwinnable, thus sparing many troops from capture.

In 1944, Overlord is narrowly defeated thanks to a number of small butterflies, but the allies do land in southern France and slowly make their way north.

In the east meanwhile, the Soviets take the Ploiesti oilfields in late Decembre 1944, though the axis do manage to block the Carpathian passes. They also reach the 1938 polish border.

By late spring 1945, the allies have once again landed in northern France, while a soviet spearhead has reached the Vistula south of Warsaw. The Red army is also advancing south into the balkans, although logistics hamper the operation. The Soviets are however suffering from acute manpower shortages.

By late autumn 1945, the nazis have been driven out of France and behind the Siegfried line. They do succed in extracting a large percentage of their forces though and also devastate an allied attempt to capture bridges in holland and Belgium via paratroopers, while also cutting off and destroying an entire armoured division thanks to selective flooding of the area. This is followed by their last major succesful counteroffensive, which thouroughly defeats an overstreched soviet attack towards the Oder, thanks in part to most soviet airfields being unasable due to the autumn rains, while the Luftwaffe operates from the concrete airstrips around Berlin. This is also the last time the luftwaffe enjoys aerial superiority.

Winter 1945 sees a grueling attritional battle along the Vistula in the east and the Siegfried line in the west. Come spring 1946, Germany's enemies have reached the Rhine and Oder rivers.

In late spring 1946, with the nazi state collapsing, the allies encircle the Ruhr area while the Soviets take Berlin. Hitler commits suicide and the european axis surrenders.
 

RousseauX

Donor
For All Time had the war go into Nov 1946 as the result of a failed premature D-Day in 1943, and subsequent greater American participation in the Pacific as oppose to Europe.

In the end of course, a nuke falls on Berlin, killing just about everyone except ReichFurhrer Heydrich Reinhard.
 
What scheme do you have in mind exactly?
Take your pick.
Me-262 - if not screwed up by Hitler/if the engines had worked (better)
Do-335 - if given better funding/earlier development
The rocket interceptor - if it had actually worked
The wire guided AAM missile - if we hadn't bombed the factory (without knowing the significance).
The radar based SAM - another if it had worked issue.

Those tend to be the famous ones. But really the german engineers behind the axis war effort had a lot of good ideas. They just had to get them past the nazi party. If only one really idea got past that, and give them a significant and enduring advantage, and they are able to mass produce them, then the war will last longer.
 
Take your pick.
Me-262 - if not screwed up by Hitler/if the engines had worked (better)
Do-335 - if given better funding/earlier development
The rocket interceptor - if it had actually worked
The wire guided AAM missile - if we hadn't bombed the factory (without knowing the significance).
The radar based SAM - another if it had worked issue.

Those tend to be the famous ones. But really the german engineers behind the axis war effort had a lot of good ideas. They just had to get them past the nazi party. If only one really idea got past that, and give them a significant and enduring advantage, and they are able to mass produce them, then the war will last longer.

Just like any of the Wunderwaffe that actually were fielded did? They were resource hogs that took away from the production of pragmatic existing weapons. Like proven tanks, and prop fighters and bombers that could have been produced in greater numbers, instead. Thank goodness OTL the Nazis squandered resources pursuing chimerical devices instead.
 
I would say August or September 1945. Assuming the US had the Bomb on schedule, it would not have been used on Japan unless Germany was already defeated. Germany would have been forced to surrender and if Hitler was still alive, there would be a coup against him.
 
For a bunch of white elephants, German research in those technologies became a lot more useful as the Allies acquired them. Heck, the US Space Program obtained help from Von Braun after all.
 
August 1945, Hitler is overthrown after he refuses to surrender after the atomic bomb attack.


not trying to be rude or anything, but did you read the OP ?

"For the purpose of the thread, let's assume that one or more of the many ways discussed around here to delay the manhattan project takes place."
 
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