AHC: Latest date for some kind of Nazi Germany to survive?

[baltur2]

For example in OTL, the Flensburg Government (essentially a remnant of Nazi leadership with the same laws and ideology, restricted to a small North German city near the Danish border) managed to survive until 5 June 1945, arguably a record time considering Hitler offed himself on 30 April 1945.

What later realistic date could you imagine for a bastion of official Nazi ideology, laws, and government to remain in the territory of Germany, possibly surviving as long as to witness the Trinity Test and the Bombing of Hiroshima?

For Bonus results, how long a time would you realistically estimate for a Nazi government and party to remain active post-1945, even in a Reformed form which survives the Nuremberg Trials?

 

[varyar]

If the Alpine Redoubt is actually constructed, that seems like a good way for Nazi die-hards to remain around into late summer. Not sure how plausible it actually is, but can't think of any better options.

 

[Bosemacher]

March 1939. Occupation of Czechia galvanized western opposition.

 

[Roches]

I agree that the Alpine Redoubt is the best chance for some group of Nazis to survive into the summer of 1945. The Wallies would approach it in the standard way: form a perimeter and, when it's convenient, blow the heck out of it. That procedure saves lives, and it's well known that nobody wanted to die on the last day of the war. So the front could last into August. It's possible -- just possible -- that Trinity would be more widely publicized, but I think the Allies knew that the Nazis were never going to surrender, so there's no point in giving up the element of surprise against Japan in the hopes of getting them to give up. I think Hitler needs to be alive for that, though.

There's also the possibility of Werwolf actually happening. There weren't many die-hard Nazis left by 30 April 1945, but, if more of them decide to go out in a blaze of glory rather than quietly killing themselves, there would be a group joined by ideology that could last into the fall of 1945. Having them last until after Nuremberg, however, is very unlikely.

 

[Library of Alexandria]

Nazi Germany could have made it to the early 50s with a large amount of luck.

 

[GTStinger]

Soviets invade Poland, Nazis don’t. Weird three way cold war sets up for a few years.

 

[baltur2]

Nazi Germany could have made it to the early 50s with a large amount of luck.

How would that work out? A world where Nuclear Weapons simply don't work? Or possibly one where the Allied Powers are less successful in liberating Europe? What about Hitler? How long would he survive if he hadn't committed suicide? For example Stalin died in 1953, do you think Hitler would have survived him, died earlier, or died in the same year?

 

[Library of Alexandria]

Soviets invade Poland, Nazis don’t. Weird three way cold war sets up for a few years.

It's not too unreasonable to think that the Nazis would side with the allies. The Nazis hated the allies more than the western allies hated them (at first), so especially against the USSR they'd definitely make a deal with the devil.



Of course, that'd get the planet on the path to becoming extremely cursed, especially if we get a more Maoist USSR post-Stalin (which isn't too far fetched).

 

[Library of Alexandria]

How would that work out? A world where Nuclear Weapons simply don't work? Or possibly one where the Allied Powers are less successful in liberating Europe? What about Hitler? How long would he survive if he hadn't committed suicide? For example Stalin died in 1953, do you think Hitler would have survived him, died earlier, or died in the same year?

The way I see it, if the Nazis didn't end up at war with one party, they'd last a good 5 years longer before fucking things up.


As I've said before, while there was some form of sympathy to the Germans in the commonwealth, the Soviets had no such feeling. If the Nazis had attacked the USSR and lucked out in Poland, they could have made it probably past Moscow before they began collapsing.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I'm going to refer you to Harry Turtledove's book "Man with the Iron Heart".
That's a pretty plausible scenario.

 

[Sabre77]

I'm going to refer you to Harry Turtledove's book "Man with the Iron Heart".
That's a pretty plausible scenario.

I don’t really agree(unless you are being sarcastic)?

Man with the Iron Heart was literally just Iraq, but with a label of “Germany” slapped on it.

The pictures of places like Auschwitz alone— and the pictures of people who‘d managed to survive Nazi efforts to exterminate them—would have been enough to sideline the anti occupation, pro isolationist domestic movement which sees so much succcess in Turtledove‘s novel.

The Germans were exhausted by 1945. They’d lost millions of men fighting across the spread of a continent. Reinhard Heydrich surviving doesn’t change that.

 

[AltoRegnant]

June 4th 1940. Germany can't beat the british empire in a one vs one, so unless the reich manages to snag the allies during Dunkirk I don't think they can win the war

 

[BlackDragon98]

I don’t really agree(unless you are being sarcastic)?

Man with the Iron Heart was literally just Iraq, but with a label of “Germany” slapped on it.

The pictures of places like Auschwitz alone— and the pictures of people who‘d managed to survive Nazi efforts to exterminate them—would have been enough to sideline the anti occupation, pro isolationist domestic movement which sees so much succcess in Turtledove‘s novel.

The Germans were exhausted by 1945. They’d lost millions of men fighting across the spread of a continent. Reinhard Heydrich surviving doesn’t change that.

Maybe not on that scale, but Nazi indoctrination was pretty heavy with the younger generations.
Werwulf called for large numbers of Hitler Youth, so maybe the 12th SS Panzer Division is not created using Hitler Youth recruits ITTL.
Leaves a good pool of recruits for Heydrich, along with any remaining SS members that would definitely join Werwulf.
There were some diehard Volkssturm troopers as well, WW1 veterans who believed in the stab in the back myth. I don't see those guys surrendering anytime soon.
The Soviets and Americans behavior towards German women didn't win any hearts and minds at all and a Panzerfaust isn't all that hard to use.
A harsher occupation because of Western horror towards German atrocities might sway some Germans too.

An example of my point.

 

[Histor32]

Late 1939 or 1940. Now this depends on actions that could be taken.. But yeah.. After that. Nope

 

[Karelian]

21st of June 1941. But that would mean that we'd talking about Notzis, not the OTL regime.

 

[Tibi088]

Have Hitler die in the summer of 1939. Have the ensuing power struggle be just long enough that it gives the nazi economy time to crash. Lets have one of the less insane options end up on top who is now forced to sort the economy to keep his power. With Hitlers diplomatic succeses the population is happy enough not to destroy the regime right away and the economic problems are blamed on the conflict for power and the loosing side of the power struggle. Any plans for war with Poland are postponed till that is finished - in the meantime the west is to be placated. Doesnt work that well at the beginning but as time goes by and Germany fails to start a conflict things cool down.

By the time the nazi's can think again of gearing up for war the USA has the Bomb and has demonstrated it. The german leadrship decides that they cant risk an open conflict with a likely hostile USA on the side of the enemy and thus stay put - at least till they have the bomb as well. By the time they succeed the soviets also have it and any thought of an european war is forgotten. The regime could limps along till the 60's when a popular uprising - maybe after the death of Führer II sweeps it away. The crimes of the regime are discovered soon after.

 

[Changundramon]

Maybe not on that scale, but Nazi indoctrination was pretty heavy with the younger generations.
Werwulf called for large numbers of Hitler Youth, so maybe the 12th SS Panzer Division is not created using Hitler Youth recruits ITTL.
Leaves a good pool of recruits for Heydrich, along with any remaining SS members that would definitely join Werwulf.
There were some diehard Volkssturm troopers as well, WW1 veterans who believed in the stab in the back myth. I don't see those guys surrendering anytime soon.
The Soviets and Americans behavior towards German women didn't win any hearts and minds at all and a Panzerfaust isn't all that hard to use.
A harsher occupation because of Western horror towards German atrocities might sway some Germans too.
View attachment 527461
An example of my point.

Agreed, but I believe that the plan for popular resistance must be formed some time in late '44. This includes creating weapon caches, safe houses, etc. Some ardent Nazi generals go into hiding as well, instead of committing suicide. Depending on the organizational skills, this could last into the 50-s, like the Forest Brothers.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

I'm going to refer you to Harry Turtledove's book "Man with the Iron Heart".
That's a pretty plausible scenario.

Ha Germany wasn’t Iraq or Afghanistan’s and the Wallies and especially the USSR would’ve had exactly zero qualms about using brutal and invasive measures up to and including starving out entire towns to stamp them out

 

[Captain Homicide]

For example Stalin died in 1953, do you think Hitler would have survived him, died earlier, or died in the same year?

It’s likely Hitler could have lived at least into the 1950s considering his largest source of stress (which exacerbates illness) would be gone and his father and all his siblings died in their 60s and 70s. The stress factor is dependent on if the Reich wins the war against the USSR, stops after France in 1940 or doesn’t wage a war at all.

He also wouldn’t need anywhere near as many drugs and quack medical treatments as he did IOTL when the war (and his condition) got worse and worse which would further extend his lifespan.

If the Reich wins the war like in AANW and there’s a cold war between them and the WAllies it’s likely that they would suffer economic collapse by the 1980s once most of the slave labor was dead (though they would try their best to obtain more from within Europe and through the conquest of foreign territory).

Assuming the likes of Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels and Bormann (fanatics who don’t let facts get in the way of their ideology) remained in charge there would be little to no reform and they would end up like a worse version of the USSR.

 

[SpanishSpy]

Ha Germany wasn’t Iraq or Afghanistan’s and the Wallies and especially the USSR would’ve had exactly zero t using brutal and invasive measures up to and including starving out entire towns to stamp them out

I considered this point on a podcast I did some time ago - my conclusion was that in case of a postwar German insurgency, the Soviets would have done mass killings and the Western Allies would 'merely' have used Boer War-style concentration camps to crush the insurgency.