AHC - Largest possible realistic USA

[Ayoitsme]

I'm sure there are many threads of this nature but forgive me, I felt like creating a new one

What, in your estimation, is the largest the USA could be in the modern day? Your POD is the 7 Years War/French and Indian War, after that anything is fair game. The country as an entity doesnt have to be recognisable to our world but bonus points if it is.

Here are some of my own ideas;

- Have Britain allow more settlement West of the Appalachians leading to a greater American population by the time the revolution comes around.

- Nova Scotia and Newfoundland had fairly large independence movements in our world but never joined the revolution due to a higher reliance on Britain. Maybe a more successful America leads them to take the risk?

- The Ontario Peninsula was very nearly taken in the Revolution, but it was actually France who convinced both parties not to go for it. If they did, America would have a much more defensible border against the rest of Canada, and the loyalists would either have to settle in Quebec or move westwards, both of which could cause major issues for them. Or they may just suck it up and live in America, who knows.

- The war of 1812 could definitely go better, and if it is combined with the points above the aftermath could be a strange one.

- There were multiple filibuster efforts in Florida and later Texas before either were annexed, maybe we could see America taking Florida without giving spain a dime or Texas joining 30 years early possibly meaning no Mexican war? Or one purely or California? Just a thought.

- Speaking of filibustering, William Walker set up governments in Sonora and Nicaragua. If Sonora can hold on and is admitted into the Union as Texas was, could we see a Second Mexican-American war? And there are multiple points Nicaragua could be taken, though this is the earliest.

- There are three ways to take Cuba; the filibuster, the proposed purchase and the Spanish-American war (in chronological order).

- America has offered to buy greenland 2 or 3 times, all of which have been declined and occupied it and Iceland during ww2. Maybe this could go another way?


I've definitely missed some possible places but I'm not writing a timeline here, just spitballing. Any comments are appreciated

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Everything north of the Darien Gap, the DR, Cuba, Puerto Rico, French caribbean islands, Liberia, lands surrounding Liberia, Spanish Guinea, Philippines, Taiwan, and a bunch of other Pacific Islands. Maybe a slice of Siberia too. Greenland and Iceland too.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

- Otl United States
- All of Canada as states
- Northern Mexico as states
- Cuba, Liberia, and several other islands in the Pacific and Carribean as territories.
- Greenland and Iceland as territories.
- Panama as a territory or state (depending on white immigration to the canal zone).
- Bermuda as a territory/state
- All of Anarctica as a territory.

Phillipines ones can't be held in the long run. Keep in mind earlier expansion means more enemies and more butterflies.

 

[Analytical Engine]

North America, the Caribbean, some bits of South America, greater Liberia, more of the Pacific.

 

[Vinization]

The Ontario Peninsula, Cuba, Baja California and some more islands in the Pacific.

 

[casaubon]

Canada, northern Mexico, Cuba, DR, maybe a few more Caribbean islands and Pacific islands.

I'm extremely skeptical the US would take large, populous non-white territories like the remainder of Mexico or the Philippines. During the time period when such annexations were possible, white supremacy was much too strong to allow it.

If the US does take something like Liberia or El Salvador, once the modern era arrives expect that to be one of the most heavily policed borders in the world to prevent immigration. (Or, I suppose, an end to birthright citizenship)

 

[Gwyain]

Canada and Cuba are definitely on the table. The US is physically capable of taking all of Mexico + Central America if it had wanted too, but like Casaubon said, there's a matter of why would they. Panama is an obvious choice, the rest might require a greater filibusterer movement or greater pandering to the south with something akin to the Golden Circle. Tough propositions all told.

 

[Ficboy]

I'd probably say for the largest United States of America (USA) possible you'd have to include all of Canada (including Quebec) and Cuba in certain PODs such as a successful Invasion of Quebec and an Ostend Manifesto that is kept a secret. Quebec and Cuba are culturally speaking different from the mostly White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) population of the United States except most of Canada with both territories being home to large amounts of Catholics in the area not to mention speaking a non-English language (French and Spanish) so it will take time for them to adjust to being American states.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Canada, northern Mexico and Baja California (if not all of Mexico). Having Quebec and a Francophone Louisiana could make it easier to get and hold Haiti, French Guyana, and the French Caribbean. Having more of Mexico might make it easier to hold Cuba in that there would still be cultural differences but the issues Spanish vs English and Catholic vs Protestant would presumably be less pronounced. The Dominican Republic. Possibly Panama. British Guiana and the British West Indies. Belize. (Okay I guess just listed the entire Caribbean). Marie Byrd Land. The moon. A bunch of islands in Oceania. I don't think Denmark would sell Greenland even if the USA offered good money in the 19th century or early 20th. They saw it as part of their Viking identity, but if the USA had the political will to take it by force, they absolutely could.

 

[PauL62]

Liberia and surrounding areas if independence had not been given , Baja California and Northern Mexico if the Gadsden Purchase would be more favorable to USA, Cuba in addition to Porto Rico if the Ostend Manifesto had stayed secret, DR if the vote at the congress is successfull (without Sumner), all of Spanish Micronesia in addition to Philippines, french caribbeans and Polynesia if the agreement between France and the USA for the sale of its territories in exchange for unlimited material military aid had materialized,dutch caribbeans if the Dutch agree to sell them in exchange for military equipment during WWII, and then Denmark successfully sell Greenland to USA. All of this seems to me to be pretty realistic.

 

[Marc]

Mildly...
One could argue that the United States is excessively large as it turned out.

 

[VaultJumper]

All of Canada and Mexico, Centaral America, most of the Caribbean, parts of the northern coast of South America, Greenland and Ice land, Bermuda, Philippians and a lot of pacific Islands, maybe some Atlantic islands.

 

[Starforce]

All of Canada with the exception of Quebec, Baja California, Greenland, Iceland, Bermuda, lots of Atlantic Islands, Puerto Rico. I think highly Hispanic areas like Cuba, northern Mexico and the rest would be pushing it due to language and cultural differences.

 

[Gwyain]

All of Canada with the exception of Quebec, Baja California, Greenland, Iceland, Bermuda, lots of Atlantic Islands, Puerto Rico. I think highly Hispanic areas like Cuba, northern Mexico and the rest would be pushing it due to language and cultural differences.

If the US is taking the rest of Canada in no way would they pass off on the Saint Lawrence, french or no.

 

[History Learner]

All of Mexico, Western Canada and Cuba.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Would say all of Canada with the exception of a significantly reduced Quebec (inspired by the proposals for Quebec had it won the referendum - where the US gains the southern side of the Saint Lawrence River and Anticosti Island), Greenland, Iceland, much of northern Mexico (roughly according to Polk including Baja California sans Yucatan), Cuba, Dominican Republic and much of the Caribbean (with the exception of Haiti, Trinidad & Tobago, Cayman Islands and Bermuda), Liberia (plus surrounding areas e.g. Ivory Coast, eastern Guinea), Panama or Nicaragua (albeit limited to just the canals as opposed to territory) and maybe Palawan (plus Spratly Islands).

Otherwise unsure how much more Pacific / Oceania territory the US could have gained in ATL or whether the positives would outweigh any drawbacks.

Edit - Forgot to mention the Russian territory of Chukotka that Russians at one point also wanted to include in addition to Alaska during the Alaska Purchase, not really heard anything about the plan beyond an old thread nor is it clarified whether the territory was the whole of OTL Chukotka Autonomous Okrug or just the Chukotka peninsula (also known as the Chukchi peninsula).

Though see little value from the US gaining the territory apart from the prospect of a Bering Strait crossing becoming more plausible in ATL.

 

[Iacobus]

If you combine the USA, Canada and the territories of the Golden Circle you've a country occupying North America from the Arctic to the Equator. A more aggressive, Pan-Americanist USA would have incentives to try for this, like a North to South Manifest Destiny or Cape to Cairo grand plan.

 

[Marc]

An aside:
In terms of conquering Meso-America. Imagine all those lovely genocidal wars against the Mayans, so many more natives to take care of than in North America...
The United States might end up geopolitically bigger, but a lot worse in all the ways that really matter.

 

[Iacobus]

The United States might end up geopolitically bigger, but a lot worse in all the ways that really matter.

This is one of the main reasons the US didn't spread further in OTL in my opinion. When it large sparely populated tracts of land, especially those owned by European powers the US was game but it hasn't really ever got behind annexing populated, independent nations. The only arguable exception was Hawaii.

 

[Marc]

This is one of the main reasons the US didn't spread further in OTL in my opinion. When it large sparely populated tracts of land, especially those owned by European powers the US was game but it hasn't really ever got behind annexing populated, independent nations. The only arguable exception was Hawaii.

Very good point, and one that seems to be often overlooked by the supposing crowd.