with a POD in 1800 what is the largest and most powerful Mexico possible? Can Mexico come to be regarded as one of the "powers"?
AHC: Largest possible Mexico
- Thread starter VictorVanBakker
- Start date
Butterflying away the Mexican-American War would be a good start. I don't know enough about Mexican history to give any other PODs.
There are various chances of getting a great Mexico. First, shortly after the independence, all Central America except Panam joined Mexico. They declared independence (again) when Mexico became a monarchy, but if Mexico becomes a democracy from the start, it's likely they will remain there. After that, an stable Mexico is able to get some inmigration and start to industrialize. You can make them go to war with Colombia and annex Panama, and even the Northern Regions of Colombia. If Mexico gets a bigger population thanks to that inmigration, then they could settle Texas and Califormia by themselves, so there are no American settlers (there may be some, but they would be too few to actually do something). Mexico could even colonize some land north of them. However, Manifest Destinity will come eventually. If Mexico is able to field a decent army, get some industrialization and inmigration, they may be able to resist and fight back. But the goal would be managing to get some Great Power in their side- Perhaps the British? If they manage to win, you have a Mexico from Panama to Califormia, having Texas and some states too.
A Mexico covering all of New Spain, including Louisiana, Florida, the Philippines, and the Greater Antilles could be plausible with a POD in the 1700s . From their, if your Mexico is stable and strong, they can go for some or even all of Oregon, purchase Alaska, go for Pacific colonies, expand into New Grenada...Mexico could certainly be huge, but it would need a POD before the war for independence.
one expansion could be into the Pacific Northwest as well. going further with that, British Columbia was weighing three options way back when: either confederating with Canada, joining the United States, or becoming independent. if Mexico is a great power ITTL, it could replace the United States for that possible decision and, with some further changes, choose to join Mexico
There was a previous discussion you might want to look at: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=262194&highlight=largest
IDK, the cultural difference between BC and Mexico would be significantly greater than that between BC and the USA.
Largest realistic, possible Mexico would include Texas,California,Arizona,New Mexico,Utah, Colorado, Nevada and Central America minus Panama. Which historically they did. Now a huge Mexico wank would include Cuba,Puerto Rico, Florida and maybe Louisiana. Near Alien Space Bats would also include Philippines, Mariana Islands and Galapagos. But that would require a much stronger military force and far less corruption.
Thanks for the plug buddy!
That's one of the things I've found most paramount to any successful large Mexico. While there's a very slim probability that both Mexico and the US can share the continent as powers in their own right, most Mexi-wanks will by and large be an Ameri-screw by default. In my own timeline I'm doing this mostly with the aid of a more violent and traumatic ACW (among various other factors), but the earlier your PoD the better.
Thanks for the plug buddy!
You're welcome, dude!
Yeah, true. Personally, I say the best way to do so is weaken the North enough to have the South successfully seceede, then let the North sort itself out while Mexico burns the CSA to the ground.
Without some major butterflies for the Americans (they dont adopt the Constitution and break up when the AoC fail for one), I dont see any way the Americans dont end up with New Orleans. IOTL Kentucky had already raised troops to secure New Orleans when the Spanish closed the port.
I was thinking something along these lines:
POD is that Napoleon is a completely different person. Instead of trying to introduce the Continental System in Europe, he attempts to do so in the Americas.
What needs to happen is that France brings the US on-side and they cooperatively help liberate Mexico from Spain before any 1812 war-analogue breaks out.
The Americans subsequently go to war with the British and with French help manage to drive them from the continent completely. France then forces a partition of North America down the throats of the US and Mexico, with Mexico taking everything west of the Rockies (and Texas for the time being), France having the Louisiana Purchase and Canada, and the US pushing west.
The point is that it makes the US and Mexico friendlier toward each other when inevitably ties break down with France and they grab as much of Louisiana as possible.
At this point the Texas question and California questions should become relevant, and ITTL they could easily spark a war. But since Mexico had recently gone to war in the Plains, they are able to militarily stop the US very forcefully at New Mexico-Colorado-Chihuahua-Coahuila, and due to California being tied up in the war, the peace treaty explicitly leaves California in Mexican hands and Texas in American hands.
I don't believe the changes so far are enough to butterfly the American Civil War, so at some point there will be a war between the north and south over slavery.
TTL's more militaristic Mexico opportunistically invades Texas during the civil war, and while they are unable to hold the territory, manage to get concessions that move their border up to the Colorado River (of Texas). This needs to be seen as a minor side conflict that doesn't damage what are considered to be overall good relations between the (northern) US and Mexico. "Taking back the part that was still Mexican anyway" or something like that.
Maybe if Mexico offers loans to the southern US during Reconstruction the two countries can mend ties. The key is to prevent the US from trying to conquer Colorado, New Mexico, and west Texas out of greed, so my suggestion would be that Mexico's strategy would be to play the role of the US's right hand man internationally, helping to enforce the Monroe Doctrine.
If they can remain friendly into the age where people no longer have the appetite to ethnically cleanse their allies in mad land grabs - say, sustained peace for several decades in North America while Europe rips itself apart with pointless wars - Mexico can end up with a lot more land, resources, and prestige than it did IOTL.
I think the best POD resulting in a recognizable Mexico(rather than some sort of Uber Gran Colombia) that's massive would be a sustained Spanish campaign into Texas VERY early into the Age of Discovery that allows for a settler colony to grow over time due to the destruction of the native populace. Even better if you turn it into a penal colony. In short, the colony grows over time to the point where settlers start moving towards the Mississippi and beat any potential competitors to the punch, resulting in a Spanish-speaking Mississippi, and potentially the Ohio area. Butterflies are massive true, but you're likely to see Louisiana incorporated into Mexico as an administrative unit in some manner, IMO, particularly because it's not likely to produce much wealth and any that does is either ending up in Habana or Veracruz.
West? What west? There was nothing left for the Yanks here for their part in the war.