AHC: larger High Seas,Fleet

Riain

Banned
I think they built at close to their capacity for most of the period leading up to ww1, but am happy to be corrected. Perhaps they could have built a couple more capital ships.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
I suppose they could have guessed better where Blucher was concerned and got a ship there equal to the British battlecruisers, meaning they have one more true BC in the lists

Perhaps if they read the signs, they could have accelerated work on the Konigs in the immediate approach to war
 
Technically they could have doubled their numbers if they'd deployed the IV, V and IV Squadrons with the main fleet. I will leave the outcome of one of the famously vast and powerful ships of the Siegfried-class getting into a slugging match with an Iron Duke to people's imagination.
 

Riain

Banned
This assumes that a bigger HSF would do better, but in reality the problem with the HSF wasn't size but organisation ad command structure. Prior to WW1 there were 2 Fleets and 2 Naval stations and by late 1914 there was a 3rd Joint Command/Naval station in Flanders, yet there was no single Naval Officer to decide priorities and allocate resources between these Fleets and Naval stations. The upshot of this was when Germany captured a slice of the Belgian coast and desperately needed men to man the position, guns and patrol vessels to defend it and Tboats and Uboats to take the offensive the 2 fleets and 2 naval stations fought tooth ans nail to retain as many resources as possible so to not diminish their own commands. This went as far as scrapping 2 coast defence battleships in 1915 rather than send them to Flanders.

If a Senior Naval Officer was put in charge of Operations the performance of the KM would improve drastically, despite it's limitations.
 
Technically they could have doubled their numbers if they'd deployed the IV, V and IV Squadrons with the main fleet. I will leave the outcome of one of the famously vast and powerful ships of the Siegfried-class getting into a slugging match with an Iron Duke to people's imagination.
Siegfried class?

Wiki says its a tiny voastal ship, 4,000 t dispkacement, a tiny boat
 
Change the Naval Law.

Build more large cruisers at the expense of battleships and have a number of them deployed with the A-H Navy in the Med. Threatening the 'windpipe' of the Empire will have more influence than being curled up in a wet corner of the North Sea. Firm control of the central Med could be conducive to bring the Italians in at the start on the CP side.

Win the contract for the Argentine battleships Rivadavia and Moreno and have the Ottomans sail Reşadiye and Sultân Osmân-ı Evvel over when they are complete. This takes two off the RN and adds 4 to the HSF in 1914. In Aug 1914 RN will have 22 BB with 11 BB building against 19 German BB and 5 BB building.
 
Could the Germans do anything to have a larger Hochseeflotte at the beginning of ww1?
They can never have the Geography of Britain nor its empire even with a bigger fleet , so unlike Britain they would still need to maintain massive land armies to guard against france and russia.
Without the coal/oil,grain and cannon fodder of the empire/CW their ships would be just more rusting hulks or diving sites in scapa flow.
 
Financially it is difficult to build up further than otl. Unlike the UK Germany also needed a large army.

That said there could have been some changes that slightly improve the numbers. One already mentioned is better intelligence on Invincible, giving Germany one more BC.

The other possibility is to have number of foreign ships built in Germany and close to completion. I just think other ships have a higher likelyhood than Dorknoughts proposals. Especially the chance of Reşadiye and Sultân Osmân-ı Evvel ending up in Germany IMO are basically non-existant.

My proposal would be the Salamis for the Greek navy. OTL the Greek government gave the tender to Germany, but various design changes afterwards and unsuccessful negotiations to buy one of the Argentine Dreadnoughts under construction delayed the start of construction to July 1913. The delay also meant that Greece scattered a lot of orders to all takers after the Ottoman purchase of Rio de Janeiro, as Salamis would come much later than two of the planned three Ottoman dreadnoughts. The hull was launched after the war broke out, but it was not far enough along, and the guns and armour, ordered in the US, were not coming. Now if the Greek commit earlier to the Vulcan design the ship might have been under construction earlier and might already have been launched before the war. The ship being expected in a reasonable timeframe the Greek government might order more after the Rio de Janeiro sale in late 1913 instead of panic buying everywhere as otl.

The other good chance for possible ships under construction in Germany would be the Dutch battleships planned. Originally they considered building coastal defense ships, but shortly before these were ordered, it was decided to purchase real dreadnoughts instead. There was a lot of wrangling about details and funding, but it seems to me that the Germaniawerft was frontrunner for purchase throughout the entire process. When war broke out there was a finalized bill for buying the first ships, of course canceled with the outbreak of war. The change from coastal defense ship to real capital ship might easily have come a bit earlier. Then have a more open debate about the costs (otl the official proposal to the parliament was postponed by the government for the entirety of 1913 and early 1914) and the first keel might be laid during 1913, maybe even two of them. Now these ships might be at a similiar stage as Salamis otl, but otoh they would be closer to the German design philosophy and use German guns and armour. So it is possible that the German navy actually considers finishing them.

In total these changes would mean one more BC in active service in 1914, a smallish battleship (Salamis) complete before the end of the year and two ships comparable to current German designs by mid-1915. Aditionally up to two Greek and two Dutch ships might be under construction, but further from completion. As otl I would anticipate the construction of Salamis-class ships to be halted, but the Dutch orders might be continued to be completed during 1916/17.

On the other side the Royal Navy could be weakened by moving the delivery of some ships close to completion forward. Almirante Latorre already happily steaming across the Atlantic might change relatively little beyond a single ship missing. If both Ottoman dreadnoughts are delievered it would of course weaken the RN, but it also has knock-on effects on the Ottoman war entry, maybe not a full flip, but perhaps neutrality at least for some time. Would also probably lead to Goeben bottled up in the Adria. One ship delivered, one seized might actually be worse from an Entente POV as the Ottomans are still angered, but there might now be two modern capital ships in the Eastern Med. Of course the absolute worst case would be both ships delievered, but the Ottomans still enter early. The RN would need to draw a number of dreadnoughts from Grand fleet as otherwise four French dreadnoughts and six semi-dreadnoughts would face seven dreadnoughts and three semi-dreadnoughts.
 
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Aphrodite

Banned
Financially it is difficult to build up further than otl. Unlike the UK Germany also needed a large army.

That said there could have been some changes that slightly improve the numbers. One already mentioned is better intelligence on Invincible, giving Germany one more BC.

The other possibility is to have number of foreign ships built in Germany and close to completion. I just think other ships have a higher likelyhood than Dorknoughts proposals. Especially the chance of Reşadiye and Sultân Osmân-ı Evvel ending up in Germany IMO are basically non-existant.

My proposal would be the Salamis for the Greek navy. OTL the Greek government gave the tender to Germany, but various design changes afterwards and unsuccessful negotiations to buy one of the Argentine Dreadnoughts under construction delayed the start of construction to July 1913. The delay also meant that Greece scattered a lot of orders to all takers after the Ottoman purchase of Rio de Janeiro, as Salamis would come much later than two of the planned three Ottoman dreadnoughts. The hull was launched after the war broke out, but it was not far enough along, and the guns and armour, ordered in the US, were not coming. Now if the Greek commit earlier to the Vulcan design the ship might have been under construction earlier and might already have been launched before the war. The ship being expected in a reasonable timeframe the Greek government might order more after the Rio de Janeiro sale in late 1913 instead of panic buying everywhere as otl.

The other good chance for possible ships under construction in Germany would be the Dutch battleships planned. Originally they considered building coastal defense ships, but shortly before these were ordered, it was decided to purchase real dreadnoughts instead. There was a lot of wrangling about details and funding, but it seems to me that the Germaniawerft was frontrunner for purchase throughout the entire process. When war broke out there was a finalized bill for buying the first ships, of course canceled with the outbreak of war. The change from coastal defense ship to real capital ship might easily have come a bit earlier. Then have a more open debate about the costs (otl the official proposal to the parliament was postponed by the government for the entirety of 1913 and early 1914) and the first keel might be laid during 1913, maybe even two of them. Now these ships might be at a similiar stage as Salamis otl, but otoh they would be closer to the German design philosophy and use German guns and armour. So it is possible that the German navy actually considers finishing them.

In total these changes would mean one more BC in active service in 1914, a smallish battleship (Salamis) complete before the end of the year and two ships comparable to current German designs by mid-1915. Aditionally up to two Greek and two Dutch ships might be under construction, but further from completion. As otl I would anticipate the construction of Salamis-class ships to be halted, but the Dutch orders might be continued to be completed during 1916/17.

On the other side the Royal Navy could be weakened by moving the delivery of some ships close to completion forward. Almirante Latorre already happily steaming across the Atlantic might change relatively little beyond a single ship missing. If both Ottoman dreadnoughts are delievered it would of course weaken the RN, but it also has knock-on effects on the Ottoman war entry, maybe not a full flip, but perhaps neutrality at least for some time. Would also probably lead to Goeben bottled up in the Adria. One ship delivered, one seized might actually be worse from an Entente POV as the Ottomans are still angered, but there might now be two modern capital ships in the Eastern Med. Of course the absolute worst case would be both ships delievered, but the Ottomans still enter early. The RN would need to draw a number of dreadnoughts from Grand fleet as otherwise four French dreadnoughts and six semi-dreadnoughts would face seven dreadnoughts and three semi-dreadnoughts.
There were six dreadnoughts ordered by the South Americans- the two Ottoman originally by Brazil, two Chilean ships one of which was converted to an aircraft carrier in British yards and two Argentine ships in the US.

Subsidize their building so Germany could have six more and Britain four less. Would be interesting to know if the liberal cabinet would have spent the money to match them.
 
There were six dreadnoughts ordered by the South Americans- the two Ottoman originally by Brazil, two Chilean ships one of which was converted to an aircraft carrier in British yards and two Argentine ships in the US.

Nitpick: only one of the ships the Ottomans bought was initially laid down for Brazil. (HMS Agincourt) HMS Erin was built for the Ottomans from the beginning.
 
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