AHC: Large scale British relief during Irish Famine

[Uruk]

1; England wasn't so reliant on single crop subsidence agriculture. The agricultural revolution had been very effective in England.

2: would be nice even if it wouldn't have done too much to help. For it to suddenly happen just like that though would be akin to the American republicans (today) suddenly campaigning for gun control

3: as dathi says that was mostly high value exports (beef the major one that I've read). Better to feed people the cheapest calories you can in this situation than give them steak dinners.
Also consider water borne transport was the way of things back then. It was just as much effort to transport goods between western England and eastern Ireland as between west and east Ireland.

4: but that helped stop future famines

5: no, no they didn't

You know there was no lack of food in Ireland at the time just that those starving couldnt afford to buy it?
Ireland exported oat, wheat, barley, butter and meat throughout the famine, if you stop the export and that food is sold in Ireland it will lower the prices enough to make it affordable to the majority of the population just as in 1782-3.

And if English agriculture was so effective why did it need so much protection not just from foreign producers but from imports from its Empire?

 

[BELFAST]

The British did help in the first year of the famine after that the cost of famine relief was transferred to Irish land lords.
The corn laws played a big part in causing the problem.
The British idea of free market was a strange one.
first they stole the land and the made the Irish pay rent for it and the with the corn laws the keep the price of wheat high and this made the rents higher.
having created an unsustainable economy with the above interventions then the decided to do nothing and the the free market work.
not a good idea.
When the Corn laws ended competition for American wheat made that economic model unviable even of the potato have not failed.
Irish landlords did not have enough money pay for relief and this made them bankrupt.
Feeding the hungry long term was not an option.
There was also a shortage of fuel in the from of turf due to the very wet weather.
They could have provided relief longer and paid for transport to the Americas.

What Caused the Irish Potato Famine?
by Mark Thornton
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=88

 

[BELFAST]

How on earth do they " solve potato blight scientifically"!?!?

Remember, this pre-Mendel, pre-Darwin and most especially, pre-Burbank.

Copper sulfate.

 

[Johnrankins]

Copper sulphate.

I have a hard time believing they knew this. Science was in its complete infancy back then. I doubt the English starved Irish peasants just for kicks. If nothing else dead Irishman don't pay taxes.

 

[BELFAST]

I have a hard time believing they knew this. Science was in its complete infancy back then. I doubt the English starved Irish peasants just for kicks. If nothing else dead Irishman don't pay taxes.

I do not think they allowed the Irish to starve for kicks. It is hard to see the English discovering copper sulfate in time to stop the famine.

 

[robcraufurd]

most British people probably thought of Ireland as a land of rebels and ingrates, so hardly saw the point of helping them out.

The point I was trying to make was that the average Briton had no more ability to help the Irish out of the famine than the average Frenchman, Prussian, American, Russian or Mongolian. They couldn't come up with a miracle cure for the blight, they couldn't invent a magic new food source; they could lobby their government to take action or donate to charity, but then so could the French, Prussians, Americans (etc.). If we criticise the British population (rather than the government) for standing and looking on as a million people died because they felt no sense of affinity to the Irish, then it must be logically inconsistent to refrain from criticising the inhabitants of other countries who stood and looked on for exactly the same reason.

Copper sulphate.

Honestly, all these suggestions are helping to show how hopeless the situation was. Copper sulphate is toxic both to plants and to humans: the discovery that it killed fungus was only made in the 1880s in France, where the grapes that grew by the roadside were sprayed with it (to stop passers-by from eating them) and magically survived a fungus outbreak. Someone would have to accidentally spray a potato with copper sulphate right before an outbreak, notice that it survives, and manage to attribute its survival to the copper sulphate. They would then have to manufacture sufficient quantities of copper sulphate to distribute throughout Ireland and spray every at-risk potato with the substance without killing the plants or rendering them inedible.

 

[sparky42]

The point I was trying to make was that the average Briton had no more ability to help the Irish out of the famine than the average Frenchman, Prussian, American, Russian or Mongolian. They couldn't come up with a miracle cure for the blight, they couldn't invent a magic new food source; they could lobby their government to take action or donate to charity, but then so could the French, Prussians, Americans (etc.). If we criticise the British population (rather than the government) for standing and looking on as a million people died because they felt no sense of affinity to the Irish, then it must be logically inconsistent to refrain from criticising the inhabitants of other countries who stood and looked on for exactly the same reason.

Fairly certain other nations/people DID give to the Irish during the Famine (one I remember is the Native Americans who shortly after the Trail of Tears still raised $710 for relief):

"It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation ... It was an amazing gesture. By today's standards, it might be a million dollars" according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma's newspaper, Bishinik, based at the Oklahoma Choctaw tribal headquarters in Durant, Oklahoma.
​

But lets be honest, the major world power of the time, right next door to Ireland and the government of Ireland should be held to a higher standard than people in the US etc. The Irish were citizens of the Empire after all.

 

[TFSmith121]

Remember, it's not the government of IRELAND

But lets be honest, the major world power of the time, right next door to Ireland and the government of Ireland should be held to a higher standard than people in the US etc. The Irish were citizens of the Empire after all.

It was the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the head of state to her first minister - this individual:

Doesn't look like he missed many meals, does he?

Best,

 

[DValdron]

The point I was trying to make was that the average Briton had no more ability to help the Irish out of the famine than the average Frenchman, Prussian, American, Russian or Mongolian. They couldn't come up with a miracle cure for the blight, they couldn't invent a magic new food source; they could lobby their government to take action or donate to charity, but then so could the French, Prussians, Americans (etc.). If we criticise the British population (rather than the government) for standing and looking on as a million people died because they felt no sense of affinity to the Irish, then it must be logically inconsistent to refrain from criticising the inhabitants of other countries who stood and looked on for exactly the same reason.

Yeah, but then there's this....

Ottoman Sultan Khaleefah Abdul-Majid I declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling herself.

The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 5 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived in Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman Sailors.

Let's recap. The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, a muslim country on the far side of Europe was so moved by the plight of the starving Irish that he promised to send 10,000 sterling.

A move which the Queen of England objected to, because as the Wealthiest Human Being on the Planet, and ruler of the Greatest Empire the Planet Had Ever Seen, because such a display of generosity made her look like a cheapskate.

It was more important for her to play her little game of one upsmanship, than to contribute one thin extra dime to people who were starving to death.

Said Sultan then sends five ships of food to the starving Irish, which the British do just about everything in their power to stop.

If there is a hell, then Queen Victoria and her Prime Minister deserve to dine in it for these actions.

Maybe they couldn't have saved everyone. But they could have done more. These sorts of posturings really damn the English.

Even if the famine was inevitable, then there were a whole lot of people who starved to death who didn't have to. People for whom a little more intervention might have made the difference between life and death.

The British Empire, so awesomely competent in so many ways, conquerer and ruler of half the world, they could conquer India, put down a massive rebellion, fight the Napoleanic wars, run a war with Russia literally on the Russian doorstep in the crimea. But when it came to the Irish famine, they turned into the keystone cops. It's fate? It's incompetence? Maybe it was just convenient.

 

[TFSmith121]

By a lonely prison wall...

- deleted.

Best,

 

[eliphas8]

Seeing all the stuff about Ireland being essentially past carrying capactiy, is there any possibility of Britain helping to pay for an Irish exodus which sees many potential famine victims travelling to America?

 

[rottenvenetic]

For what it's worth I don't think the difficult (for that time) logistics of supplying the Irish interior with enough food relief were beyond the British Empire. With any other power of that time I could buy that but not the Brits.

So we're left with: for this timeline to work the Empire has to want to intervene seriously to save the Irish, which requires a drastic change in attitude.

Since this is not a politics forum I will not bitch at length about capitalism and the free market at this time

 

[GeographyDude]

. . If the British had made an effort to solve potato blight scientifically, this could have been their buy-in. .

Please notice what I'm saying. It's a little like inducing a call in Texas Hold'em Poker. The player may then feel stuck and committed.

So, the more likely outcome, the British are unable to help scientifically, but then feel more obligated to try to help in other ways.

This might just develop just from happenstance as a POD. Or, a really skillful Irish politician could induce this. And if so, more power to him or her!

 

[CalBear]

By a lonely prison wall,
I heard a young girl calling
Michael, they have taken you away,
For you stole Trevelyan's corn,
So the young might see the morn.
Now a prison ship lies waiting in the bay.

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing, we had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.

By a lonely prison wall,
I heard a young man calling
Nothing matters, Mary, when you're free
Against the famine and the Crown,
I rebelled, they cut me down.
Now you must raise our child with dignity.

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing, we had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.

By a lonely harbor wall,
she watched the last star falling
As that prison ship sailed out against the sky
Sure she'll wait and hope and pray,
for her love in Botany Bay
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.

It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing, we had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry

Best,

Why did you find this necessary?

Completely reasonable discussion and you toss in a Molotov Cocktail?

NEVER do this again.

 

[TFSmith121]

Okay, fair enough.

Why did you find this necessary?

Completely reasonable discussion and you toss in a Molotov Cocktail?

NEVER do this again.

Okay, fair enough.

Best,

 

[sparky42]

Seeing all the stuff about Ireland being essentially past carrying capactiy, is there any possibility of Britain helping to pay for an Irish exodus which sees many potential famine victims travelling to America?

I've always wondered if they were committed to such a policy, would they have sent them to America, or to the other colonies within the Empire? And what difference could that have made? Maybe not much for say Canada/Australia/New Zealand other than higher populations earlier, but say the Cape Colony...

 

[GeographyDude]

I like the above poem!

And to me, it does a very good job of answering the question, What is the depth of feeling on the part of the Irish toward the English for letting them down? Now, dry academic sources may also address this question. And I'd prefer to have both. But if I was pressed to choose between the two of them, I'll take the poetry.

 

[oudi14]

I never heard of that poem before, but I find it rather moving.

I know this will sound naïve at best, but I always wondered why more Irish didn't leave their farms, and walk to the coast to catch fish? Coming from an island nation like I do, this would be a natural impulse for me, but I realize the average Irish peasant had a totally different mindset. I just wouldn't have hung around and starved, would have eaten any edible organic matter I could get my hands on.

 

[Socrates]

I've always wondered if they were committed to such a policy, would they have sent them to America, or to the other colonies within the Empire? And what difference could that have made? Maybe not much for say Canada/Australia/New Zealand other than higher populations earlier, but say the Cape Colony...

I somehow feel that shipping a half million people to the other side of the world would be a lot more expensive than just shipping food to the inland of the island next door.

 

[TFSmith121]

It's actually a folksong, written in the 1970s, and

I never heard of that poem before, but I find it rather moving.

I know this will sound naïve at best, but I always wondered why more Irish didn't leave their farms, and walk to the coast to catch fish? Coming from an island nation like I do, this would be a natural impulse for me, but I realize the average Irish peasant had a totally different mindset. I just wouldn't have hung around and starved, would have eaten any edible organic matter I could get my hands on.

My sincere apologies to whoever was offended and raised the issue with Calbear, but it's actually a folksong, written in the 1970s, by Pete St. John (a Dubliner, as in the Republic) and recorded by everyone from Danny Doyle to Sir James Galway, Order of the British Empire.

IMOAAVHO, it's about as much a "rebel song" as Waltzing Matilda or Un Canadien Errant or Over the Hills and Far Away or even We Shall Overcome ... not exactly My Little Armalite, but be that as it may...

The thing about fishing is that it generally takes boats, nets, lines, etc., and fishermen want to be paid for their catch ... the average "starving Irish peasant" isn't exactly rolling in cash in 1848...

Here's a reasonably balanced interpretation of the Famine by that well-known Irish nationalist organization, the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml

Best,