AHC: Korea annexed by China and not by Japan

[Jonjo]

Korea is considered part of the Chinese nation, Japan has or never did have any control of it in any time in ALT history.

 

[FDW]

China did rule over Korea at one point, during the Han Dynasty. And OTL, Korea actually had a very close and very friendly relationship with China, one that was only ended with the Sino-Japanese war OTL.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

Korea is considered part of the Chinese nation, Japan has or never did have any control of it in any time in ALT history.

OTL a long time ago.

 

[scholar]

Korea is considered part of the Chinese nation, Japan has or never did have any control of it in any time in ALT history.

Korea has been considered an integral part of the Chinese sphere, and a chinese territory, for most of the past 1000 years. The thing is, Korea was always completely autonomous. China rarely interfered unless it was in support of one candidate or another for the throne. It wasn't an annexation.

How do you make this happen? It could be something as simple as when a map gets drawn Korea its put under China's control and neither Korea or China try to change that. According to both the Chinese and the Koreans during most of the mid-late Joseon that was the case anyways. Korea only moved to be separate when China was repeatedly beaten, it could no longer force away foreigners, and the Russians, Japanese, and Chinese factions in Korea fought against one another for influence. The Japanese faction won, although I'm certain most of them most certainly would come to regret that decision.

 

[democracy101]

China did rule over Korea at one point, during the Han Dynasty. And OTL, Korea actually had a very close and very friendly relationship with China, one that was only ended with the Sino-Japanese war OTL.

Yes, but actual control was very limited, as three of the four commanderies were destroyed or moved within 25 years after they were established. However, the 400-year presence within Lelang was long enough for Korean states to gradually adopt Chinese culture, especially the language, over time.

Korea has been considered an integral part of the Chinese sphere, and a chinese territory, for most of the past 1000 years. The thing is, Korea was always completely autonomous. China rarely interfered unless it was in support of one candidate or another for the throne. It wasn't an annexation.

China was perfectly content with letting Korea remain politically independent as long as the latter paid tribute and remained on cordial terms, and this status would probably not change regardless of the situation. The last time that China invaded Korea was during the Tang, who were pushed out because Silla managed to gather enough troops from the peninsula, along with Baekje and Goguryeo refugees, resulting in China's expulsion by 676. This was also the reason why although Silla continued to pay tribute to the Tang, the relationship was strained at times because of the latter's original ambition to conquer and absorb the peninsula altogether.

How do you make this happen? It could be something as simple as when a map gets drawn Korea its put under China's control and neither Korea or China try to change that. According to both the Chinese and the Koreans during most of the mid-late Joseon that was the case anyways. Korea only moved to be separate when China was repeatedly beaten, it could no longer force away foreigners, and the Russians, Japanese, and Chinese factions in Korea fought against one another for influence. The Japanese faction won, although I'm certain most of them most certainly would come to regret that decision.

Extremely unlikely, if not impossible. The Ming attempted to do something similar by demanding Cheollyeong from Goryeo on the basis that it had been directly governed by the Yuan as a minor province. However, the Goryeo court refused to accept their demands, and actually sent 50,000 troops under Yi Seong-gye in order to conquer Liaodong, on the basis of past control under Goguryeo, as a counter-response. Although the general refused to follow orders due to pressing conditions, and instigated a coup instead, eventually establishing Joseon in 1392, the Ming realized that Korea would not back down, and did not make any further territorial claims afterward. In return, however, the ruler decided to maintain close relations with China in order to deter them from invading, which was the beginning of Korea's consolidated tributary relationship with China.

On the other hand, the Manchus did invade Korea twice in order to shift the tributary relationship, but both occurred before the Qing seized Beijing and eventually reunified China, so they didn't exactly involve a direct relationship between China and Korea. In addition, the Qing and Joseon decided on an official border in 1712, suggesting that the Manchus were willing to recognize Korea as a separate political entity as long as the tributary status was maintained. In other words, neither China nor Korea would have been willing to break the fragile balance, as both benefited from trading and diplomatic relations, so there was no need for the peninsula to be politically incorporated.

If the Qing had attempted to directly incorporate any part of Korea, however, the latter would have almost certainly responded by raising troops, similar to what occurred during the dispute between the Ming and Goryeo. While a temporary occupation might have been possible, guerrillas would have operated from the countryside, not to mention that a navy would have been resurrected in some form. A military response by the Qing would also theoretically not make sense based on the fact that it would have its hands full with extensive campaigns within Central and Southeast Asia before 1800, along with uprisings within the country afterward, not to mention the Opium Wars beginning in 1839. The incursion into Korea would also have the side effect of the peninsula maintaining and expanding upon its military culture, which had been in decline since the late 17th century precisely because there were no active threats to its borders, but had generally been flourishing for more than 1500 years before then.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I guess theoretically, this could happen if the Han Dynasty wanted to take over all of the Korean Peninsula and make sure it stays Chinese, but I'm not sure what reason this would happen, since Emperor Wu seemed fairly satisfied with annexing just parts of northern Korea.

There are two ways I could see that are more likely. First, the Western Jin doesn't disintegrate after roughly 290, and thus maintains both Lelang and Daifang Commanderies in Korea. If Western Jin becomes successful, it can probably dominate and take over the Korean Peninsula if it decides it wants to keep its eastern territories. This is also at an early enough point that the states on the peninsula aren't very strong. However, Chinese history would essentially become unrecognizable after this, since the absence of the nomadic invasions would be such a tremendous shift. To be honest, there aren't many reasons for the Jin to want to expand, though I assume they'd take care to maintain the two Commanderies they do have.

The other way would be a backdoor sort of annexation, Korea is incorporated into China in the same manner as Yunnan or Ningxia. If the Mongols, after conquering Korea, decide to incorporate the peninsula into the Yuan Empire, this might work, but it's much later and thus has less chance of success.

 

[democracy101]

I guess theoretically, this could happen if the Han Dynasty wanted to take over all of the Korean Peninsula and make sure it stays Chinese, but I'm not sure what reason this would happen, since Emperor Wu seemed fairly satisfied with annexing just parts of northern Korea.

Gojoseon was conquered mainly because it had allied with the Xiongnu and cut off trade to the east. As a result, the Han would not have had any particular reason to further expand its reach, and if it had attempted to do so, other tribes from within the region, especially the northern areas, would probably have responded by attacking with greater frequency. One of the reasons why Goguryeo eventually split off from Buyeo was because the former was located on highly inhospitable terrain, so it needed to continuously maintain troops and raid its neighbors or expand territory in order to obtain a steady supply of resources. However, if the Han had attempted to conquer Goguryeo as well, there would have been no particular reason to hold the territory, which was barren compared to the fertile area around Lelang. As a result, China would have left soon after rearranging tributary relations, similar to what occurred after Cao Wei invaded in 244, allowing time for Goguryeo to consolidate and recover.

There are two ways I could see that are more likely. First, the Western Jin doesn't disintegrate after roughly 290, and thus maintains both Lelang and Daifang Commanderies in Korea. If Western Jin becomes successful, it can probably dominate and take over the Korean Peninsula if it decides it wants to keep its eastern territories. This is also at an early enough point that the states on the peninsula aren't very strong. However, Chinese history would essentially become unrecognizable after this, since the absence of the nomadic invasions would be such a tremendous shift. To be honest, there aren't many reasons for the Jin to want to expand, though I assume they'd take care to maintain the two Commanderies they do have.

If the Jin had attempted to expand its reach beyond its commandaries within the peninsula, Goguryeo would almost certainly have allied with the Xianbei, similar to what occurred in AD 121 under Taejo, and would most likely have resulted in a stalemate, as the Jin would have been unable to retain mountainous territory for long, while the alliance would probably not have been enough to overrun the Lelang and Daifang Commanderies, not to mention eventually taking over Liaodong. As a comparison, Micheon managed to ally with some Xianbei tribes and attack west in order to counter Murong Hui's growing influence, but failed to curtail it, although this event suggests close relations between Goguryeo and the Xianbei in the area at the time. In any case, the butterflies would probably make China unrecognizable in the long run, as you stated.

The other way would be a backdoor sort of annexation, Korea is incorporated into China in the same manner as Yunnan or Ningxia. If the Mongols, after conquering Korea, decide to incorporate the peninsula into the Yuan Empire, this might work, but it's much later and thus has less chance of success.

Extremely unlikely. Neither Yunnan nor Ningxia managed to hold out for long, while Goryeo held out for more than 40 years and seven expeditions, which was the reason why the Mongols decided to keep the latter politically intact. The military would have taken control within the peninsula regardless of the situation in response to an invasion, and the court agreed to surrender partially because the Mongols agreed to let the state remain politically independent. However, if a more direct incorporation had been planned, neither the court nor the military would have been willing to comply, extending the conflict, and the conquest of the Song might have been delayed as well. In addition, although the Mongols initially incorporated the northwest region of Goryeo as a Yuan province in 1270, it eventually decided to return the territory in 1290 as a result of repeated requests from Goryeo, although the one in the northeast remained. As a result, considering that Goryeo used a variety of diplomatic methods in order to preserve its territory, it would have almost certainly resorted to military resistance if these efforts had failed, which the Mongols would have been unwilling to prolong.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Gojoseon was conquered mainly because it had allied with the Xiongnu and cut off trade to the east. As a result, the Han would not have had any particular reason to further expand its reach, and if it had attempted to do so, other tribes from within the region, especially the northern areas, would probably have responded by attacking with greater frequency. One of the reasons why Goguryeo eventually split off from Buyeo was because the former was located on highly inhospitable terrain, so it needed to continuously maintain troops and raid its neighbors or expand territory in order to obtain a steady supply of resources. However, if the Han had attempted to conquer Goguryeo as well, there would have been no particular reason to hold the territory, which was barren compared to the fertile area around Lelang. As a result, China would have left soon after rearranging tributary relations, similar to what occurred after Cao Wei invaded in 244, allowing time for Goguryeo to consolidate and recover.

Yes, I don't think the Han Dynasty would have gone forward with such a plan. No further comment.

If the Jin had attempted to expand its reach beyond its commandaries within the peninsula, Goguryeo would almost certainly have allied with the Xianbei, similar to what occurred in AD 121 under Taejo, and would most likely have resulted in a stalemate, as the Jin would have been unable to retain mountainous territory for long, while the alliance would probably not have been enough to overrun the Lelang and Daifang Commanderies, not to mention eventually taking over Liaodong. As a comparison, Micheon managed to ally with some Xianbei tribes and attack west in order to counter Murong Hui's growing influence, but failed to curtail it, although this event suggests close relations between Goguryeo and the Xianbei in the area at the time. In any case, the butterflies would probably make China unrecognizable in the long run, as you stated.

The survival of the Western Jin would require divergence before 300 CE, which is 30-40 years before the Xianbei come to power in Northern China.

I don't want to be unclear: the downfall of the Western Jin was due to initial structural problems that very well may have caused trouble in the long-term anyways. For those who don't know, the first Jin Emperor decided to avoid centralizing authority and split up much of the army among his sons, who had a bad habit of killing each other. Also, even before 300 CE, the Xiongnu and other northern nomads were rebelling. However, in a scenario where Sima Yan centralizes power and his daughter-in-law Jia Nanfeng doesn't come to power and ultimately the War of the Eight Princes is avoided, the Western Jin wouldn't self-destruct and the north wouldn't be overrun by various different tribes.

You say that such a conflict would be a stalemate: why? For example, the Xianbei didn't just fight the Western Jin: they also fought for them. And if Koguryo's allying with Xianbei, the Western Jin can just ally with the Xiongnu, or the Di, or the Qiang, or lesser tribes that don't like the Xianbei. None of the major contenders during the fall of the Western Jin allied with Koguryo or the Xianbei. Liu Yuan didn't, Shi Le didn't, Ran Min didn't, and so forth. The Xianbei are of course contenders in North China, but they are hardly dominant, and it's quite telling that the Xianbei didn't start with their major conquests until after the Xiongnu, Di, and Qiang tribes had exhausted each other.

The Western Jin can bring up huge forces (it had 700,000 men in 280, though I would never take such statistics at face value), not to mention the fact that the Koguryo state is not as developed as later periods, when it was victorious. It seems quite bizarre to assert that a stable Western Jin could only fight Koguryo to a stalemate, while a minor Xianbei state could take Koguryo's capital. The territory of southern Korea is not tremendously different from the territory of northern and central Korea, which the Wei and Jin did manage to hold for some time. Korea is distant, but it's not as far off as some of the other places that China has invaded. Thus, in a situation where the Western Jin avoids self-destruction, it's hard to imagine them losing in a Korean expedition.

Extremely unlikely. Neither Yunnan nor Ningxia managed to hold out for long, while Goryeo held out for more than 40 years and seven expeditions, which was the reason why the Mongols decided to keep the latter politically intact. The military would have taken control within the peninsula regardless of the situation in response to an invasion, and the court agreed to surrender partially because the Mongols agreed to let the state remain politically independent. However, if a more direct incorporation had been planned, neither the court nor the military would have been willing to comply, extending the conflict, and the conquest of the Song might have been delayed as well. In addition, although the Mongols initially incorporated the northwest region of Goryeo as a Yuan province in 1270, it eventually decided to return the territory in 1290 as a result of repeated requests from Goryeo, although the one in the northeast remained. As a result, considering that Goryeo used a variety of diplomatic methods in order to preserve its territory, it would have almost certainly resorted to military resistance if these efforts had failed, which the Mongols would have been unwilling to prolong.

Well, the Western Xia held out for a shorter time, but they also had a smaller population. Koryo resisted for a decent period of time, true. But afterwards? The situation in 1270 or 1280 is far different from the situation in 1220 or 1250. The Mongols have plenty of troops left after they established the Yuan: they reportedly had 500,000 men for their invasion of Vietnam in 1285, 300,000 men for the invasion of Vietnam in 1287, and 30,000 for the invasion of Java in 1293. (I say reportedly for reasons that don't need to be stated.) Even if you go back earlier in time, with the Mongols declaring right from the very beginning that they intend to turn Koryo into a sea of fire, err, a Yuan province, how would that change anything? Koryo resisted because it was devoted to its independence, in which case the threat posed by annexation is just as bad as the threat posed by submission. My point, however, should be fairly clear: if the Mongols wanted to annex Korea, they could. It's not like Korea has some inexhaustible amount of manpower that could run indefinitely.

EDIT: Koryo wasn't politically independent. Its rulers could, and were, removed by Yuan Emperors at will, and were at times forced to reside in China. That's not to say Koryo was incorporated into the Yuan Empire, but it was not fully sovereign.

 

[democracy101]

The survival of the Western Jin would require divergence before 300 CE, which is 30-40 years before the Xianbei come to power in Northern China.

Yes, but the Xianbei had a stable presence in Northeast Asia long before then. They probably did not have the capability to continuously maintain an offensive against a stable Chinese state, not to mention seizing a significant amount of territory, but none of the states involved with the latter managed to hold onto Xianbei territory for long.

I don't want to be unclear: the downfall of the Western Jin was due to initial structural problems that very well may have caused trouble in the long-term anyways. For those who don't know, the first Jin Emperor decided to avoid centralizing authority and split up much of the army among his sons, who had a bad habit of killing each other. Also, even before 300 CE, the Xiongnu and other northern nomads were rebelling. However, in a scenario where Sima Yan centralizes power and his daughter-in-law Jia Nanfeng doesn't come to power and ultimately the War of the Eight Princes is avoided, the Western Jin wouldn't self-destruct and the north wouldn't be overrun by various different tribes.

You say that such a conflict would be a stalemate: why? For example, the Xianbei didn't just fight the Western Jin: they also fought for them. And if Koguryo's allying with Xianbei, the Western Jin can just ally with the Xiongnu, or the Di, or the Qiang, or lesser tribes that don't like the Xianbei. None of the major contenders during the fall of the Western Jin allied with Koguryo or the Xianbei. Liu Yuan didn't, Shi Le didn't, Ran Min didn't, and so forth. The Xianbei are of course contenders in North China, but they are hardly dominant, and it's quite telling that the Xianbei didn't start with their major conquests until after the Xiongnu, Di, and Qiang tribes had exhausted each other.

Not a stalemate per se, but if the Jin's main goal was to conquer and hold onto territories conquered from Goguryeo, it would not be particularly successful, as there would be no reason to hold onto to such inhospitable terrain. Yes, both the Cao Wei and the Former Yan sacked Goguryeo's capital, but left soon after, which allowed the latter to retain most of its government structures and rebuild time and time again. A temporary invasion in order to reaffirm tributary relationships would certainly make sense, but no state would be willing to hold onto barren territory for long, and Goguryeo would continue to conduct raids as long as the government remained intact.

In addition, your statement about the Jin's political structure also suggests that a vast amount of butterflies are needed to change the situation significantly. Although some initial changes might prevent or stall excessive decentralization for a while, measures ensuring stability in the long run, without costly conflicts between royal family members, along with no "figureheads" and/or regents for more than a decade or so due to inability, need to be maintained for decades, if not centuries.

The Western Jin can bring up huge forces (it had 700,000 men in 280, though I would never take such statistics at face value), not to mention the fact that the Koguryo state is not as developed as later periods, when it was victorious. It seems quite bizarre to assert that a stable Western Jin could only fight Koguryo to a stalemate, while a minor Xianbei state could take Koguryo's capital. The territory of southern Korea is not tremendously different from the territory of northern and central Korea, which the Wei and Jin did manage to hold for some time. Korea is distant, but it's not as far off as some of the other places that China has invaded. Thus, in a situation where the Western Jin avoids self-destruction, it's hard to imagine them losing in a Korean expedition.

Again, the problem is China somehow managing to politically incorporate most, if not all, of the territory within the Korean Peninsula and Southern Manchuria. Control fluctuated depending on the time period, but all of the Chinese states were perfectly content with retaining control over the western portions of Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, while making sure that various statelets continued to pay tribute and granting titles to local rulers to satisfy them. Considering that both sides benefited from the cordial relationship, it really wouldn't make sense for China to drastically shift the balance, even if it had the potential to do so.

Also, while the peninsula as a whole is mountainous, the geography varies drastically across regions. The plains are generally limited to the western coast, which was why the locations of what are now Seoul and Pyongyang (which roughly translates to "plain/flat land") remained as administrative centers for so long, and why Lelang was located in Pyongyang, and not in what is now Wonsan, for instance. Jeolla has several areas with rugged terrain, although none are comparable to the Baekdudaegan Mountain Range, along with extremely inhospitable areas in the northeast. This was also the main reason why although Goguryeo was invaded various times, the rulers always fled east, and none of the invaders managed to reach the eastern regions until the Tang managed to do so in 668, when the state ceased to exist.

Well, the Western Xia held out for a shorter time, but they also had a smaller population. Koryo resisted for a decent period of time, true. But afterwards? The situation in 1270 or 1280 is far different from the situation in 1220 or 1250. The Mongols have plenty of troops left after they established the Yuan: they reportedly had 500,000 men for their invasion of Vietnam in 1285, 300,000 men for the invasion of Vietnam in 1287, and 30,000 for the invasion of Java in 1293. (I say reportedly for reasons that don't need to be stated.) Even if you go back earlier in time, with the Mongols declaring right from the very beginning that they intend to turn Koryo into a sea of fire, err, a Yuan province, how would that change anything? Koryo resisted because it was devoted to its independence, in which case the threat posed by annexation is just as bad as the threat posed by submission. My point, however, should be fairly clear: if the Mongols wanted to annex Korea, they could. It's not like Korea has some inexhaustible amount of manpower that could run indefinitely.

Yes, but attacking Korea also means that they have to eventually divert their forces from other potential campaigns, which would eventually become a greater burden as time passes. Also, Goryeo managed to resist for so long because various guerrillas operated independently of the government as well. For example, during the second invasion, a local fortress managed to hold out without reinforcements, and a monk who managed to teach himself martial arts eventually assassinated a Mongol commander with a single arrow, causing the invaders to withdraw altogether. Although this was an exceptional scenario, it shows how the public continued to resist against seemingly insurmountable odds, even without significant aid from the government, and would have continued to resist and harass the invaders regardless of the situation.

Considering that although the Mongols sent some of their best generals to Korea, local militias continued to operate independently for more than 40 years, it would make much more sense for the Mongols to establish a more stable relationship instead of investing more troops for future campaigns with uncertain results. In addition, the Mongols would have probably preferred to invade other states and exact more tribute from them, regardless of the situation, as Goryeo remained cordial and continued to send tribute.

EDIT: Koryo wasn't politically independent. Its rulers could, and were, removed by Yuan Emperors at will, and were at times forced to reside in China. That's not to say Koryo was incorporated into the Yuan Empire, but it was not fully sovereign.

True, but this is haggling over specifics. Compared to other states that had been directly incorporated into one of the Mongol entities, such as the Song within the Yuan, Goryeo generally remained autonomous and was able to make political decisions separate from those made within the Yuan court. Diplomats also flowed both ways, and the Goryeo rulers ruled directly from the peninsula, which would not have been necessary if Goryeo's political structure had been incorporated into that of the Yuan.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Not a stalemate per se, but if the Jin's main goal was to conquer and hold onto territories conquered from Goguryeo, it would not be particularly successful, as there would be no reason to hold onto to such inhospitable terrain. Yes, both the Cao Wei and the Former Yan sacked Goguryeo's capital, but left soon after, which allowed the latter to retain most of its government structures and rebuild time and time again. A temporary invasion in order to reaffirm tributary relationships would certainly make sense, but no state would be willing to hold onto barren territory for long, and Goguryeo would continue to conduct raids as long as the government remained intact.

In addition, your statement about the Jin's political structure also suggests that a vast amount of butterflies are needed to change the situation significantly. Although some initial changes might prevent or stall excessive decentralization for a while, measures ensuring stability in the long run, without costly conflicts between royal family members, along with no "figureheads" and/or regents for more than a decade or so due to inability, need to be maintained for decades, if not centuries.

Again, the problem is China somehow managing to politically incorporate most, if not all, of the territory within the Korean Peninsula and Southern Manchuria. Control fluctuated depending on the time period, but all of the Chinese states were perfectly content with retaining control over the western portions of Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, while making sure that various statelets continued to pay tribute and granting titles to local rulers to satisfy them. Considering that both sides benefited from the cordial relationship, it really wouldn't make sense for China to drastically shift the balance, even if it had the potential to do so.

Also, while the peninsula as a whole is mountainous, the geography varies drastically across regions. The plains are generally limited to the western coast, which was why the locations of what are now Seoul and Pyongyang (which roughly translates to "plain/flat land") remained as administrative centers for so long, and why Lelang was located in Pyongyang, and not in what is now Wonsan, for instance. Jeolla has several areas with rugged terrain, although none are comparable to the Baekdudaegan Mountain Range, along with extremely inhospitable areas in the northeast. This was also the main reason why although Goguryeo was invaded various times, the rulers always fled east, and none of the invaders managed to reach the eastern regions until the Tang managed to do so in 668, when the state ceased to exist.

Yes, I was trying to imagine the Western Jin as another Tang Dynasty. I wasn't saying that the Western Jin would be invading the Korean Peninsula immediately. The divergence would have to relate to Sima Yan deciding to make an alternate political structure for the empire before he conquers the Sun Wu, and then require an alternate heir, and plenty of other details. If Koguryo decided to attack Lelang (I assume they had such ambitions even before the fall of the Jin), then the Jin will fight back, and if they wanted, they would be in a much better position to take the peninsula. I don't know the particulars why the Jin might want to conquer Korea, but I can point to the generality that territorial expansion usually stems from naked aggression, which can happen in any country. After all, why would Han China establish Lelang in the first place? If it just wanted tribute, it could have left the Old Choson kingdom in place. The Chinese states were not quite concerned with reaching a mutually beneficial scenario: they would take a successful occupation over piddling tribute any day of the week.

Your argument about Koguryo seems to be basically "Koguryo can keep resisting and the Jin could never conquer it, therefore the the Jin will give up." In a conflict with a strong unified China, Koguryo is in a terrible position. The Cao Wei and the Murong Yan never had the benefits of ruling all of China, and were always busy with other things too. Southern Korea, in addition, has no reasonably-developed states to resist. And Korea's geography is, to make it clear again, not that bad. Various parts of China are much more severe and inhospitable, even if I just compare Han China Proper. Sichuan alone has mountains tall enough to put Mount Baekdu to shame.

Yes, but attacking Korea also means that they have to eventually divert their forces from other potential campaigns, which would eventually become a greater burden as time passes. Also, Goryeo managed to resist for so long because various guerrillas operated independently of the government as well. For example, during the second invasion, a local fortress managed to hold out without reinforcements, and a monk who managed to teach himself martial arts eventually assassinated a Mongol commander with a single arrow, causing the invaders to withdraw altogether. Although this was an exceptional scenario, it shows how the public continued to resist against seemingly insurmountable odds, even without significant aid from the government, and would have continued to resist and harass the invaders regardless of the situation.

Considering that although the Mongols sent some of their best generals to Korea, local militias continued to operate independently for more than 40 years, it would make much more sense for the Mongols to establish a more stable relationship instead of investing more troops for future campaigns with uncertain results. In addition, the Mongols would have probably preferred to invade other states and exact more tribute from them, regardless of the situation, as Goryeo remained cordial and continued to send tribute.

The Mongol invasions were not necessarily about seeking stable relationships. The campaigns that would have to be diverted (e.g., against Vietnam or Japan) had nothing to do with stable relationships and more with expansion for the sake of expansion. There's no particular financial reason for the Mongols to invade, say, Indonesia. Other countries might have been able to inflict massive casualties on the Mongols, who then give up. But none of these countries are close to the Mongol homeland, while Korea is.

Their bigger concern is with subduing threats (Korea is closer than Vietnam) or resistance (which Korea would be doing in this situation). In a case where Korea resists more, the Mongols will focus on defeating it, then annexing, since I assume Mongol goodwill would run out. In a case where the Yuan decides to annex Korea between 1273 and 1285 (I admit that this Korean annexation scenario is only possible if the Yuan avoids the southeast Asian fiascoes), how could Korea resist indefinitely? Koryo only has so many people, while the Mongols have far more soldiers, and this time around, a decent navy. Whether they have organized armies or unorganized guerillas, Koryo would not be able to fight off the Yuan indefinitely: the numbers are just stacked against it.

Your argument can be reduced to "Koryo resisted for fifty(?) years, therefore they can keep resisting indefinitely until the Mongols give up." I don't even need to bother addressing this again.

 

[scholar]

China was perfectly content with letting Korea remain politically independent as long as the latter paid tribute and remained on cordial terms, and this status would probably not change regardless of the situation.

Given that the very nature of the tributary relationship at least nominally negates political independence that's not accurate. Korea was defacto independent and functioned independently, but on a political scale (even if its only words) it was not recognized as independent.

Extremely unlikely, if not impossible. The Ming attempted to do something similar by demanding Cheollyeong from Goryeo on the basis that it had been directly governed by the Yuan as a minor province.

That's not what I meant.

Rather, I was referring to a European division of what is China and what is not. China itself doesn't care what is China as everything is China, the son of heaven is the ruler of tianxia. Its symbolism and words. China in order to get around there being other states makes them barbarians or rebels. They exist, but are ignored or made to go after one another. Tributary states are lesser civilized nations that give obedience to the sovereign, or Emperor. China didn't have another way of dealing with the world until it was forced to, in every circumstance being considered a national humiliation.

A ruler that voluntarily subordinates himself to another and receives rank for it is not an independent ruler by any means to the outside world. A stronger China that enforces its own will may create borders that includes its tributaries. In fact, a successful imperial china would accept nothing less than all relevant tributaries within its boundaries. Consolidation could occur later, and it is by no means impossible for it to occur. Its likely to, actually, given that there would be a huge disparity of industrial levels and fighting capacity if we're looking at Meiji analogs.

The idea that it is basically impossible on the grounds of the Tang Dynasty campaign and something that didn't come about during the Ming Dynasty is unsound in its entirety. It reaks of predetermination of history.

 

[Superman]

Maybe have Sino-Korean relations be even better, so the Koreans become a Chinese protectorate instead of a Japanese one. When the Japanese become even more of a threat, the Koreans may request to be anexed to protect themselves. This may be AS, since I don't know much about East Asian history.

 

[democracy101]

Yes, I was trying to imagine the Western Jin as another Tang Dynasty. I wasn't saying that the Western Jin would be invading the Korean Peninsula immediately. The divergence would have to relate to Sima Yan deciding to make an alternate political structure for the empire before he conquers the Sun Wu, and then require an alternate heir, and plenty of other details. If Koguryo decided to attack Lelang (I assume they had such ambitions even before the fall of the Jin), then the Jin will fight back, and if they wanted, they would be in a much better position to take the peninsula. I don't know the particulars why the Jin might want to conquer Korea, but I can point to the generality that territorial expansion usually stems from naked aggression, which can happen in any country. After all, why would Han China establish Lelang in the first place? If it just wanted tribute, it could have left the Old Choson kingdom in place. The Chinese states were not quite concerned with reaching a mutually beneficial scenario: they would take a successful occupation over piddling tribute any day of the week.

Not really. The Han invaded Gojoseon specifically because the latter refused to pay tribute, executed an envoy, cut off trade routes, and allied with the Xiongnu, so invasion and occupation was the only option. On the other hand, Goguryeo and the other Korean polities continued to pay tribute to various Chinese states, and maintained stable diplomatic relations, even when each respective entity was at their heights. Yes, the Jin could theoretically invade Goguryeo and occupy significant territory for a while, but it would probably take at least a decade to actively expand into the eastern portions, and make sure that the inhabitants don't revolt for a while, not to mention raids, which would be difficult. Again, I never said that temporary occupation was impossible, as it certainly occurred within Lelang for centuries, but that it would be nearly impossible for China to retain control over most of Southern Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula for long, as various internal and external factors concerning China would add up over time.

Your argument about Koguryo seems to be basically "Koguryo can keep resisting and the Jin could never conquer it, therefore the the Jin will give up." In a conflict with a strong unified China, Koguryo is in a terrible position. The Cao Wei and the Murong Yan never had the benefits of ruling all of China, and were always busy with other things too. Southern Korea, in addition, has no reasonably-developed states to resist. And Korea's geography is, to make it clear again, not that bad. Various parts of China are much more severe and inhospitable, even if I just compare Han China Proper. Sichuan alone has mountains tall enough to put Mount Baekdu to shame.

Yes, but this is assuming that court politics are entirely stable for many decades, and that the Jin will always focus on Korea regarding foreign policy, which will be highly unlikely if it continues to clash with those to the north, south, and west. Sichuan is also not exactly a good comparison, as it had been under Zhou influence, and had been overrun by the Qin around 316 BC, over 200 years before the Han did the same with Gojoseon. In addition, significant areas of Sichuan continued to remain under Chinese control, but the entire area was fully incorporated gradually over time, and remained as a frontier region for centuries, suggesting that control was often tenuous. This was mostly due to native resistance, while Chinese states were concerned with other matters as well, such as competition from other states, or border issues to the north.

The Mongol invasions were not necessarily about seeking stable relationships. The campaigns that would have to be diverted (e.g., against Vietnam or Japan) had nothing to do with stable relationships and more with expansion for the sake of expansion. There's no particular financial reason for the Mongols to invade, say, Indonesia. Other countries might have been able to inflict massive casualties on the Mongols, who then give up. But none of these countries are close to the Mongol homeland, while Korea is.

Their bigger concern is with subduing threats (Korea is closer than Vietnam) or resistance (which Korea would be doing in this situation). In a case where Korea resists more, the Mongols will focus on defeating it, then annexing, since I assume Mongol goodwill would run out. In a case where the Yuan decides to annex Korea between 1273 and 1285 (I admit that this Korean annexation scenario is only possible if the Yuan avoids the southeast Asian fiascoes), how could Korea resist indefinitely? Koryo only has so many people, while the Mongols have far more soldiers, and this time around, a decent navy. Whether they have organized armies or unorganized guerillas, Koryo would not be able to fight off the Yuan indefinitely: the numbers are just stacked against it.

Your argument can be reduced to "Koryo resisted for fifty(?) years, therefore they can keep resisting indefinitely until the Mongols give up." I don't even need to bother addressing this again.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. To begin with, the Mongols left very few political entities intact after conquering them, and if towns attempted to resist, they were usually razed to the ground, so if the entire peninsula was somehow overrun by the second to fourth invasions, which would be extremely unlikely, it would probably have been directly incorporated into the Yuan later on. However, the Mongols left most of Goryeo's political functions intact, suggesting that even they admitted that direct incorporation was not a viable option after repeated failed invasions. On the other hand, while the public was willing to resist the invaders for 20-30 years or so, they were gradually becoming weary of the costs involved, and the conflict began to turn into discontented militias ostracized by the government continuing to resist the Mongols.

This was why after the seventh invasion in 1257, and the official surrender in 1259, there were no military conflicts until 1270, when the ousted military staged an insurrection until 1273 due to the northwest region's incorporation as a Yuan province, although it was eventually returned in 1290. However, the Mongols also decided not to punish Goryeo apart from incorporating Tamra (Jeju Island), as the court had continued to cooperate with the Mongols sporadically since 1254, and fully after 1259, and had no intention of actively resisting the Mongols. In other words, everyone but the ousted militia was willing to accept Mongol intervention after 1259, and given how the Mongols decided not to directly incorporate the peninsula, even after a three-year insurrection, neither side would have been willing to prolong military conflicts long after 1259. As a result, the Yuan would be focused more on other regions, such as Southeast Asia, in order to exact tribute and/or conquer territory from them as well.

Given that the very nature of the tributary relationship at least nominally negates political independence that's not accurate. Korea was defacto independent and functioned independently, but on a political scale (even if its only words) it was not recognized as independent.

Yes, but this is haggling over specifics. My point was that Korea was never governed directly under China since the Ming, although the former was often subjected to excessive interference. Maintaining tributary relations was often also the only way to trade with states within China, along with establishing formal diplomatic relationships. As a result, although Joseon might have been under some degree of political control regarding the Ming and Qing, tributary relationships by themselves do not necessarily imply political control, as various other states within Asia, along with some from Europe, paid tribute as well, but were considered to be politically independent.

That's not what I meant.

Rather, I was referring to a European division of what is China and what is not. China itself doesn't care what is China as everything is China, the son of heaven is the ruler of tianxia. Its symbolism and words. China in order to get around there being other states makes them barbarians or rebels. They exist, but are ignored or made to go after one another. Tributary states are lesser civilized nations that give obedience to the sovereign, or Emperor. China didn't have another way of dealing with the world until it was forced to, in every circumstance being considered a national humiliation.

A ruler that voluntarily subordinates himself to another and receives rank for it is not an independent ruler by any means to the outside world. A stronger China that enforces its own will may create borders that includes its tributaries. In fact, a successful imperial china would accept nothing less than all relevant tributaries within its boundaries. Consolidation could occur later, and it is by no means impossible for it to occur. Its likely to, actually, given that there would be a huge disparity of industrial levels and fighting capacity if we're looking at Meiji analogs.

The idea that it is basically impossible on the grounds of the Tang Dynasty campaign and something that didn't come about during the Ming Dynasty is unsound in its entirety. It reaks of predetermination of history.

I was making a stark distinction between theoretical and actual control, which you seem to conflate for some reason. According to your logic, China could have claimed Japan, the Ryukyus, Annam, Burma, Tibet (During the Ming), Nepal, Malaysia, and other states located in Southeast Asia and Europe as part of its "territory" when they paid tribute, but this would have been far from the political reality. As a result, I was trying to say that if the Qing around 1700-50 had attempted to impose a more direct form of political control than the one present on paper, which already existed, Joseon would almost certainly have responded with military action, similar to what had occurred in the past.

Maybe have Sino-Korean relations be even better, so the Koreans become a Chinese protectorate instead of a Japanese one. When the Japanese become even more of a threat, the Koreans may request to be anexed to protect themselves. This may be AS, since I don't know much about East Asian history.

The problem is that Joseon was content with maintaining a tributary relationship with the Qing until around 1876, when it attempted to counter Japanese influence by requesting assistance from China and Russia, although all of the factions within the court advocating each side were significant. In other words, the government was more concerned with a balance between the three factions as a temporary measure, as China was no longer the only way out, before it actively embarked on industrialization. As a result, it was not until the Japanese resulted to bribery, trickery, and force that most of the court eventually sided with Japan, and was theoretically illegally annexed in 1910.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Not really. The Han invaded Gojoseon specifically because the latter refused to pay tribute, executed an envoy, cut off trade routes, and allied with the Xiongnu, so invasion and occupation was the only option. On the other hand, Goguryeo and the other Korean polities continued to pay tribute to various Chinese states, and maintained stable diplomatic relations, even when each respective entity was at their heights. Yes, the Jin could theoretically invade Goguryeo and occupy significant territory for a while, but it would probably take at least a decade to actively expand into the eastern portions, and make sure that the inhabitants don't revolt for a while, not to mention raids, which would be difficult. Again, I never said that temporary occupation was impossible, as it certainly occurred within Lelang for centuries, but that it would be nearly impossible for China to retain control over most of Southern Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula for long, as various internal and external factors concerning China would add up over time.

Yes, but this is assuming that court politics are entirely stable for many decades, and that the Jin will always focus on Korea regarding foreign policy, which will be highly unlikely if it continues to clash with those to the north, south, and west. Sichuan is also not exactly a good comparison, as it had been under Zhou influence, and had been overrun by the Qin around 316 BC, over 200 years before the Han did the same with Gojoseon. In addition, significant areas of Sichuan continued to remain under Chinese control, but the entire area was fully incorporated gradually over time, and remained as a frontier region for centuries, suggesting that control was often tenuous. This was mostly due to native resistance, while Chinese states were concerned with other matters as well, such as competition from other states, or border issues to the north.

What various internal and external factors would force China out of Korea? The Jin Dynasty isn't destined to fall apart quickly. (To use a meme, it was not born in the chaos: it merely embraced it.) Unless you're asserting that the Chinese age of disunity happen all over again, what outside forces would you be referring to? The fall of the Jin was triggered by internal unrest. Absent that, it's perfectly possible that the Jin can keep outside forces at bay, the same way that the Tang was never conquered by outside invaders. To the south, there aren't any organized states (possibly Funan, but that's too far away). To the west, there might have been states, but I don't remember. There were tribes though. To the north of China's borders are Xiongnu and Xianbei, but these can be resisted. The first Xiongnu which did cause trouble in China were not northern invaders: rather they were actually Xiongnu who had submitted to the Sima Jin or Cao Wei and settled in China afterwards, taking advantage when they saw weakness (think foederati for those reading who don't know much about Chinese history).

I know that Sichuan took a while before it became fully Chinese, but a time frame of centuries would probably be needed before Korea would become part of China. It took time, but eventually Sichuan became Chinese (well, there's the Tibetan parts that were annexed to Sichuan province in the last century, but I'm not talking about those). I should point out that while much of Sichuan remained unorganized, the Chinese almost always had at least a foothold with Chengdu, similar to Lelang. There are no particular unique qualities of Korea that would enable it to magically resist forever.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. To begin with, the Mongols left very few political entities intact after conquering them, and if towns attempted to resist, they were usually razed to the ground, so if the entire peninsula was somehow overrun by the second to fourth invasions, which would be extremely unlikely, it would probably have been directly incorporated into the Yuan later on. However, the Mongols left most of Goryeo's political functions intact, suggesting that even they admitted that direct incorporation was not a viable option after repeated failed invasions. On the other hand, while the public was willing to resist the invaders for 20-30 years or so, they were gradually becoming weary of the costs involved, and the conflict began to turn into discontented militias ostracized by the government continuing to resist the Mongols.

This was why after the seventh invasion in 1257, and the official surrender in 1259, there were no military conflicts until 1270, when the ousted military staged an insurrection until 1273 due to the northwest region's incorporation as a Yuan province, although it was eventually returned in 1290. However, the Mongols also decided not to punish Goryeo apart from incorporating Tamra (Jeju Island), as the court had continued to cooperate with the Mongols sporadically since 1254, and fully after 1259, and had no intention of actively resisting the Mongols. In other words, everyone but the ousted militia was willing to accept Mongol intervention after 1259, and given how the Mongols decided not to directly incorporate the peninsula, even after a three-year insurrection, neither side would have been willing to prolong military conflicts long after 1259. As a result, the Yuan would be focused more on other regions, such as Southeast Asia, in order to exact tribute and/or conquer territory from them as well.

Let's look at two scenarios: One, Koryo doesn't settle in 1259 (I'm using your date). If they continue to resist, using your scenario from somewhere else on this forum, where the Choe rulers retain control and decide not to capitulate, then the Mongols will not impose such nice terms and they are much more likely to annex Korea once they finish with the country (again, Mongols don't have to win, but I think the odds are obvious). Two, sometime in roughly 1280, the ruler of the Yuan decides to annex Koryo, as per suggestions by (a minority of) the Koryo court. In that case, how could Koryo resist? It's just not likely.

 

[democracy101]

What various internal and external factors would force China out of Korea? The Jin Dynasty isn't destined to fall apart quickly. (To use a meme, it was not born in the chaos: it merely embraced it.) Unless you're asserting that the Chinese age of disunity happen all over again, what outside forces would you be referring to? The fall of the Jin was triggered by internal unrest. Absent that, it's perfectly possible that the Jin can keep outside forces at bay, the same way that the Tang was never conquered by outside invaders. To the south, there aren't any organized states (possibly Funan, but that's too far away). To the west, there might have been states, but I don't remember. There were tribes though. To the north of China's borders are Xiongnu and Xianbei, but these can be resisted. The first Xiongnu which did cause trouble in China were not northern invaders: rather they were actually Xiongnu who had submitted to the Sima Jin or Cao Wei and settled in China afterwards, taking advantage when they saw weakness (think foederati for those reading who don't know much about Chinese history).

I'm stating that both internal and external factors will eventually loosen the Jin's hold on border regions in the long term. Again, my point isn't that China cannot retain control in the northeast for about 50-100 years or so given extremely optimal circumstances, but rather that the state will be greatly weakened in the event of a significant dispute within the court, along with border conflicts in multiple regions. As I stated before, there is no particular reason why the Jin would go through the trouble to actually invade its tributaries when it was already benefiting from trading relations and its political status, which you still haven't directly addressed. In addition, none of the Korean polities would even think about invading the commandaries if the Jin was more than capable of overrunning the region, as Goguryeo only invaded them in two major waves, once when the Han was undergoing political turmoil and suffered from famines, along with a much more successful second attempt when the Jin was falling apart due to civil war. Goguryeo did raid Liaodong in 242, in which the Wei invaded the state in response, but it would have not made such a rash attempt in similar circumstances after such a devastating loss.

I know that Sichuan took a while before it became fully Chinese, but a time frame of centuries would probably be needed before Korea would become part of China. It took time, but eventually Sichuan became Chinese (well, there's the Tibetan parts that were annexed to Sichuan province in the last century, but I'm not talking about those). I should point out that while much of Sichuan remained unorganized, the Chinese almost always had at least a foothold with Chengdu, similar to Lelang. There are no particular unique qualities of Korea that would enable it to magically resist forever.

Yes, but significant parts of Sichuan, at least politically, had been long incorporated into China by the time that the Qin conquered all of the other states, while Gojoseon was not conquered until 108 BC. In addition, while there were no independent consolidated native states posing as significant threats within Sichuan and the surrounding areas, allowing China to retain the region with few breaks after 316 BC, Goguryeo and Baekje continued to expand even while under Chinese influence, eventually causing the loss of the commanderies by 314. In other words, it was much more likely for Sichuan than for Lelang to be absorbed permanently into China, as Goguryeo would have continued to pay tribute as long as China remained strong, but would have constantly sought for an opportunity to attack the latter as soon as political instability became an issue.

Let's look at two scenarios: One, Koryo doesn't settle in 1259 (I'm using your date). If they continue to resist, using your scenario from somewhere else on this forum, where the Choe rulers retain control and decide not to capitulate, then the Mongols will not impose such nice terms and they are much more likely to annex Korea once they finish with the country (again, Mongols don't have to win, but I think the odds are obvious). Two, sometime in roughly 1280, the ruler of the Yuan decides to annex Koryo, as per suggestions by (a minority of) the Koryo court. In that case, how could Koryo resist? It's just not likely.

I specifically stated:

In other words, there are two main issues concerning why Goryeo's military dictatorship cannot last for more than 200 years or so.

This does not necessarily imply that the Choe family would retain power after 1259, but rather that a military dictatorship could theoretically remain in some form for decades after that date, which in itself would be extremely unlikely. In addition, even though Choe Ui was assassinated in 1258, ending the family's control, none of the generals succeeding him were able to control the government's policies for long. As a result, it would be extremely unlikely, if not impossible, for the government, not to mention the court, to resist after 1259, and/or the military to remain in power for long, as the court would eventually suppress the dissenting military in the long run.

In other words, the Choe family would no longer be in power soon after 1258 regardless of the situation, because other generals were no longer willing to support them after numerous devastating invasions. Meanwhile, the court would have sought for ways to resolve the situation diplomatically, as it did so in 1254 and 9, and any attempts by the military to prevent this would eventually result in interference by the Mongols, with the court joining the invaders against the generals, as occurred from 1269-73. The military was also becoming increasingly fragmented after 1259, as the new general in charge was assassinated in 1258, an ultimately unsuccessful coup occurred the following year, and the Sambyeolcho Rebellion was composed of disorganized militias who had to fight against the Mongols and most of the Goryeo troops.

Your second suggestion also does not really make sense, as the Goryeo court had been consistently demanding for the return of the northwest region since 1270, which was finally granted in 1290. In other words, considering the determination of the court within the peninsula even after Mongol interference and influence, it would have been extremely unlikely, if not impossible, for a faction to demand direct incorporation, as doing so would have essentially meant political suicide.

 

[scholar]

Yes, but this is haggling over specifics. My point was that Korea was never governed directly under China since the Ming, although the former was often subjected to excessive interference. Maintaining tributary relations was often also the only way to trade with states within China, along with establishing formal diplomatic relationships. As a result, although Joseon might have been under some degree of political control regarding the Ming and Qing, tributary relationships by themselves do not necessarily imply political control, as various other states within Asia, along with some from Europe, paid tribute as well, but were considered to be politically independent.

I have no idea why you would even bother making such a point, you know full well that I know this. Specifics are what dictate treaties, you can't just ignore that.

I was making a stark distinction between theoretical and actual control, which you seem to conflate for some reason. According to your logic, China could have claimed Japan, the Ryukyus, Annam, Burma, Tibet (During the Ming), Nepal, Malaysia, and other states located in Southeast Asia and Europe as part of its "territory" when they paid tribute, but this would have been far from the political reality. As a result, I was trying to say that if the Qing around 1700-50 had attempted to impose a more direct form of political control than the one present on paper, which already existed, Joseon would almost certainly have responded with military action, similar to what had occurred in the past.

I had already stated that they were autonomous and defacto independent; that it was only words that subordinated the states and political custom. A custom adopted wholeheartedly by Korea for much of the past thousand years.

China could well have claimed any of the states in its tributary system as part of itself. That's what both China and the "emissaries" of those countries claimed. If, for some reason, China becomes an industrializing and emerging global power and negotiates the borders of its "country" and "area of control/interest" then you will bet that Korea, above all else, will be under China. As far as the West will be concerned the relationship is clearly one of subordination. At best, the relationship may be likened to dominion or princely state status. As a result Korea is clearly theirs, and as far as either China or Korea is concerned its the perpetuation of the status quo. If this does not satisfy the OP later this can change. Korea may resist, Korea may not. That's not the point. Merely that this allows the annexation of Korea and the motivation for later annexation.

 

[M79]

-Qing dynasty reforms following losses in the Opium War and modernizes a la Japan slowly over 50 years. By 1895 Japan, Russia, and an untested China eye Korea and Manchuria. This lays the ground for a three way war in 1905 that sees Russia lose much of Siberia to Chinese invasion (Prussian guns and officer training along with American industrialization) and Japan kicked off the Asian mainland entirely. Korea is made a protectorate in 1895 then annexed in 1905.

-Ming invade the Korean peninsula following Toyotomi's invasion in the 1590s and decide to stay for some near-ASB reason. They adapt Korean naval technology and greet Western ships in iron-clad boats...

-Ming take over Korea when the retake China from the Yuan dynasty and the two simply remain united until present day. Korea becomes a distinct area that adapts Chinese script in addition to its own while retaining its own language and unique culture just like many parts of OTL China.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

-snip-

I'm not going to divide my post for reasons that I can address the two issues regardless of how much your arguments run around.

Neither the Western Jin nor the Mongol Yuan are concerned predominantly with mutually beneficial relationships with other countries. It sounds harsh, but it's true. Particularly with the latter. They don't care about good relations. Empires tend to expand, and Korea is a close and possibly convenient target for both of them. I don't need to give a specific reason, but then again, history isn't filled with specific reasons either. There was no specific reason why the Yellow River civilization would choose to expand into aboriginal southern China. There was no specific reason why the Mongols had to leave the Eurasian steppe and create one of the world's largest empires. The general reason is simple: greed. If they want more land, more territory, more people to tax, more tribute, more slaves, whatever, they will attempt to gain this, and incorporating a tributary state like Korea brings in another cash cow.

In neither case (with a strong Western Jin and a Mongol Yuan desiring annexation) is Korea likely to remain independent. It's really as simple as that, and your choice of arguing by nitpicking select details does not weaken this argument.

 

[democracy101]

I have no idea why you would even bother making such a point, you know full well that I know this. Specifics are what dictate treaties, you can't just ignore that.

Yes, but my previous response was in response to your previous post, which suggested that the actual state of matters was less important. According to that view, China's "territory" included states like Portugal, the Netherlands, England, and Italy, although individuals within those European countries would be very surprised to hear that, and it would have been extremely unlikely for China to militarily back up its claims when it was busy with other matters. China made numerous territorial claims throughout its history, but not all reflected the political reality and could be carried out, so most of the unrealistic ones can be generally ignored given the situation.

I had already stated that they were autonomous and defacto independent; that it was only words that subordinated the states and political custom. A custom adopted wholeheartedly by Korea for much of the past thousand years.

China could well have claimed any of the states in its tributary system as part of itself. That's what both China and the "emissaries" of those countries claimed. If, for some reason, China becomes an industrializing and emerging global power and negotiates the borders of its "country" and "area of control/interest" then you will bet that Korea, above all else, will be under China. As far as the West will be concerned the relationship is clearly one of subordination. At best, the relationship may be likened to dominion or princely state status. As a result Korea is clearly theirs, and as far as either China or Korea is concerned its the perpetuation of the status quo. If this does not satisfy the OP later this can change. Korea may resist, Korea may not. That's not the point. Merely that this allows the annexation of Korea and the motivation for later annexation.

Well, this scenario requires a lot of pieces to fit together, and I don't view the events to be very likely as a whole, because they involve numerous unlikely events to occur for at least a few centuries one after another, and require foresight in some cases. China imposing "greater" control over Korea without actual incorporation can translate into a Sinocentric and Eurocentric view, along with stirring diplomatic tension with a stable tributary for no particular reason when it had its hands full with campaigns into various "hostile" states before 1800 and numerous uprisings afterward. In other words, the Qing had much more pressing events than to antagonize Joseon through diplomacy.

I'm not going to divide my post for reasons that I can address the two issues regardless of how much your arguments run around.

Neither the Western Jin nor the Mongol Yuan are concerned predominantly with mutually beneficial relationships with other countries. It sounds harsh, but it's true. Particularly with the latter. They don't care about good relations. Empires tend to expand, and Korea is a close and possibly convenient target for both of them. I don't need to give a specific reason, but then again, history isn't filled with specific reasons either. There was no specific reason why the Yellow River civilization would choose to expand into aboriginal southern China. There was no specific reason why the Mongols had to leave the Eurasian steppe and create one of the world's largest empires. The general reason is simple: greed. If they want more land, more territory, more people to tax, more tribute, more slaves, whatever, they will attempt to gain this, and incorporating a tributary state like Korea brings in another cash cow.

In neither case (with a strong Western Jin and a Mongol Yuan desiring annexation) is Korea likely to remain independent. It's really as simple as that, and your choice of arguing by nitpicking select details does not weaken this argument.

And yet China never expanded into Korea several times when they had the opportunity to do so before the Tang did so temporarily in 668, and neither did the Mongols after Goryeo officially surrendered in 1259, and a minor uprising until 1273, with the exception of some provinces. Korea's general situation was an extreme outlier for centuries, and in any case, the invaders would have been much more concerned with other pressing issues, such as attempting to resolve border issues with other states, or invading other countries, instead of attacking a loyal tributary without any discernible reason, when it was already profiting. As a result, Korea would have been a drop in the bucket for any state that had the capability to conquer it, so in the vast majority of cases, it would not even be worth paying attention to as long as tributary relationships were stable.

It's also worth noting that China and the Mongols both expanded mostly because their neighboring states were hostile, often invaded and conducted border raids, refused to conduct diplomatic relations by executing envoys, for example, and/or refused to pay tribute, so invasion and expansion would have been logical results.

-Qing dynasty reforms following losses in the Opium War and modernizes a la Japan slowly over 50 years. By 1895 Japan, Russia, and an untested China eye Korea and Manchuria. This lays the ground for a three way war in 1905 that sees Russia lose much of Siberia to Chinese invasion (Prussian guns and officer training along with American industrialization) and Japan kicked off the Asian mainland entirely. Korea is made a protectorate in 1895 then annexed in 1905.

This scenario requires numerous unlikely factors, such as preventing a major uprising by the Han ethnicity, and completely changing the "ethnocentric" mindset of the state that had existed for more than two millennia, which the Manchus were ironically promoting. It would also be extremely difficult for the Qing to efficiently allocate most, if not all, of its resources across the vast majority of regions, including the underdeveloped ones, which was one reason why the uprisings were so devastating. I'm also not sure why China would establish a protectorate ten years before the three-way war, and how it would be annexed immediately afterward, as it would need to consolidate its gains first.

-Ming invade the Korean peninsula following Toyotomi's invasion in the 1590s and decide to stay for some near-ASB reason. They adapt Korean naval technology and greet Western ships in iron-clad boats...

I have no idea why the Ming would attempt to do this when its resources were depleted, natural disasters occurred afterward, and the Jurchen were becoming a serious threat.

-Ming take over Korea when the retake China from the Yuan dynasty and the two simply remain united until present day. Korea becomes a distinct area that adapts Chinese script in addition to its own while retaining its own language and unique culture just like many parts of OTL China.

To begin with, hangul had not been invented at the time, and Korea had been using Chinese characters for centuries. I had also already stated within this thread:

The Ming attempted to do something similar by demanding Cheollyeong from Goryeo on the basis that it had been directly governed by the Yuan as a minor province. However, the Goryeo court refused to accept their demands, and actually sent 50,000 troops under Yi Seong-gye in order to conquer Liaodong, on the basis of past control under Goguryeo, as a counter-response. Although the general refused to follow orders due to pressing conditions, and instigated a coup instead, eventually establishing Joseon in 1392, the Ming realized that Korea would not back down, and did not make any further territorial claims afterward. In return, however, the ruler decided to maintain close relations with China in order to deter them from invading, which was the beginning of Korea's consolidated tributary relationship with China.

Goryeo, and later Joseon, were more than willing to defend their territory, although their approaches differed. In fact, Goryeo had already temporarily occupied Liaodong when the Yuan withdrew, so it had another reason to back up its claims. As a result, an actual invasion would not make sense for either side given the conditions.

 

[scholar]

Yes, but my previous response was in response to your previous post, which suggested that the actual state of matters was less important. According to that view, China's "territory" included states like Portugal, the Netherlands, England, and Italy, although individuals within those European countries would be very surprised to hear that, and it would have been extremely unlikely for China to militarily back up its claims when it was busy with other matters. China made numerous territorial claims throughout its history, but not all reflected the political reality and could be carried out, so most of the unrealistic ones can be generally ignored given the situation.

You are, of course, assuming that they would still join the tributary system and that they would continue to be within it when such events occurred. Further, China imposing the borders it draws to Europe would imply that there was a war in which China won. Unless the victory is Chinese soldiers conquering Europe the borders will naturally exclude Europe and most likely virtually everything outside of East and Southeast Asia.

Well, this scenario requires a lot of pieces to fit together, and I don't view the events to be very likely as a whole, because they involve numerous unlikely events to occur for at least a few centuries one after another, and require foresight in some cases. China imposing "greater" control over Korea without actual incorporation can translate into a Sinocentric and Eurocentric view, along with stirring diplomatic tension with a stable tributary for no particular reason when it had its hands full with campaigns into various "hostile" states before 1800 and numerous uprisings afterward. In other words, the Qing had much more pressing events than to antagonize Joseon through diplomacy.

Actually, it doesn't. There's only two pieces: A modernizing China imposes its "borders" and "areas of control" to the outside world and said borders contain within them Korea. Later annexation is later annexation.

Also I have no idea why you are referencing "larger problems" at stake, there are no larger problems currently present in my scenario. You are imposing them based on OTL events and struggles which would be radically different and most likely avoided with a modernizing China with the capability to enforce its will on Europeans. I am not referring to a country that is at war with dozens of other areas, but rather a country that was at war with and imposed its borders and zones of control to Europe. You seem to be missing my thoughts on this in its entirety. The POD could be during the Song Dynasty and the events taking place could be in 1860; which readily makes the political landscape unrecognizable and any assumptions of other issues or other agendas nonexistent.