AHC: Khwarazmians Halt Mongol Expansion

[eliphas8]

So yeah, your challenge is to have the Kwarezemians defeat Mongol expansion at their borders. They can be pushed back but they need to definitively stop mongol expansion in that direction.

EDIT: Oh and because I always tell other people to do this but may be doing it myself, if this isn't common knowledge: The Kwarazmians (No I have no idea how to pronounce it either) where a dynsasty that ruled over much of modern day central asia, Afghanistan, and Iran who OTL warred with the Mongols for three years in which they where utterly destroyed.

 

[TRH]

It's only the tip of the iceberg, but the Mongols were able to capture a man who had mapped out a chain of oases in the desert to the north of the Khwarazmian defensive position. Genghis Khan used this route to take Bukhara by surprise late in the campaign. Have that cartographer guy killed by bandits or something before the Mongols can find him and that outflanking maneuver won't work.

The rest is a lot harder, I'm afraid.

 

[Elfwine]

Jalal ad-Din seems to have had some military successes, but there was an incident involving the distribution of some horses (if memory serves) where he made a decision that cost him some much needed allies.

His diplomatic ability in general seems rather mediocre, but he did as well as anyone at this point in the field. That might be the thing to build on.

 

[Russian]

So yeah, your challenge is to have the Kwarezemians defeat Mongol expansion at their borders. They can be pushed back but they need to definitively stop mongol expansion in that direction.

I am afraid that to stop Mongol expansion in that direction you need some POD among the Mongols. For example Chinghiz Khan died earlier or was not born at all or something like that.
You see the Mongols/Tatars were much better fighters than the Kwarezemians. So you might give some advantage POD to the Kwarezemians and they win a battle or two. But after that the Mongols inevitably come back in force and conquer them.

* I remember that famous battle when Khorezm Shah Muhhamed with his elite guard troops met quite accidentally a reconnoissance Mongol troops who were on their way back from chasing some tribes from Mongolia who needed punishment.
Khorezm Shah decided to teach these dirty savage Mongols a lesson, though the Mongols tried hard to avoid a battle. The battle lasted a day and ended in a draw, at night the Mongols tricked their enemies and secretly went back home.
This battle was a deep psychological shock to the hardened veteran Muhammed - in his life he saw a lot of fighters in lots of battles. But never in his life he saw such desperate excellent warriors as the Mongols. If I remember correctly never after that he dared to meet the Mongols in the open field. When the Mongol invading force came he ordered to hide all his forces inside his fortifications.

 

[Namayan]

So yeah, your challenge is to have the Kwarezemians defeat Mongol expansion at their borders. They can be pushed back but they need to definitively stop mongol expansion in that direction.

EDIT: Oh and because I always tell other people to do this but may be doing it myself, if this isn't common knowledge: The Kwarazmians (No I have no idea how to pronounce it either) where a dynsasty that ruled over much of modern day central asia, Afghanistan, and Iran who OTL warred with the Mongols for three years in which they where utterly destroyed.

Well, first in foremost, do not arrest the Mongolian trade Caravan and/or do not behead Genghis' ambassador. Sign an alliance with Genghis. The Jin's was Genghis current problem.

Now if you want to defeat the Mongols in Open war, you need to POD or kill every capable Mongol general alive or who is going to live.

For me, it was much easier to ally with Genghis than to fight him in order to halt any Mongolian expansion in Khwarezm in their lifetime.

 

[Russian]

For me, it was much easier to ally with Genghis than to fight him in order to halt any Mongolian expansion in Khwarezm in their lifetime.

You see some kind of alliance with Genghis Khan was possible only in the very beginning of his Empire. And even than it was not an alliance as it is usually understood - the tribe/people/country got incorporated into the Empire on some preferable terms - they were inside the Empire but the Great Khan promised to treat them favorably if they behave.
But when the great conquest of the world started the neighbors of the Genghizzid Empire had two choices left:
1) admit the power and authority of the Great Khan, to submit - no conditions, no treaty, just admit that your country is in full power of the Mongol Empire
2) fight to the death (usually it was your death in the end).

There was no such a word as an "ally people/country" in the Mongol political vocabulary. All the peoples were divided into two categories:
1) already conquered (or those who gave up without a fight and may hope on some preferential treatment)
2) not yet conquered (or those who did not yet give up without a fight)

That was the reason why the Mongol ambassadors were executed so often by the foreign rulers. Because the message of the Great Khan usually was - "submit (admit the full authority of the Great Khan) or you are going to be killed.
So the ambassadors are usually murdered and the Great Khan has a nice excuse, reason, justification to start a war - casus belli.

So IMO Khorezm Shah Muhammed understood the situation and he perfectly knew how this is going to end. By negotiating he might buy himself some time, a few years or so, but thus the Mongols would collect more information and get better prepared for the invasion.
The Mongol ambassadors were just spies, no doubt about it.

 

[Brightflame]

Jalal ad-Din seems to have had some military successes, but there was an incident involving the distribution of some horses (if memory serves) where he made a decision that cost him some much needed allies.

His diplomatic ability in general seems rather mediocre, but he did as well as anyone at this point in the field. That might be the thing to build on.

I would love to see a timeline about Jalal. He was a very interesting man.

 

[Elfwine]

I would love to see a timeline about Jalal. He was a very interesting man.

Hard to find much detailed information on, sadly.

A thing that comes to mind - if Jalal ad-Din keeps some form of the Khwarezmian empire around past Genghis's death, would terms like Daniel of Galica achieved be impossible? Or would this be one of the examples of "you had the temerity to fight, you must be exterminated.'?

This requires getting to the point where there's something for him to rule over, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Namayan]

You see some kind of alliance with Genghis Khan was possible only in the very beginning of his Empire. And even than it was not an alliance as it is usually understood - the tribe/people/country got incorporated into the Empire on some preferable terms - they were inside the Empire but the Great Khan promised to treat them favorably if they behave.
But when the great conquest of the world started the neighbors of the Genghizzid Empire had two choices left:
1) admit the power and authority of the Great Khan, to submit - no conditions, no treaty, just admit that your country is in full power of the Mongol Empire
2) fight to the death (usually it was your death in the end).

There was no such a word as an "ally people/country" in the Mongol political vocabulary. All the peoples were divided into two categories:
1) already conquered (or those who gave up without a fight and may hope on some preferential treatment)
2) not yet conquered (or those who did not yet give up without a fight)

That was the reason why the Mongol ambassadors were executed so often by the foreign rulers. Because the message of the Great Khan usually was - "submit (admit the full authority of the Great Khan) or you are going to be killed.
So the ambassadors are usually murdered and the Great Khan has a nice excuse, reason, justification to start a war - casus belli.

So IMO Khorezm Shah Muhammed understood the situation and he perfectly knew how this is going to end. By negotiating he might buy himself some time, a few years or so, but thus the Mongols would collect more information and get better prepared for the invasion.
The Mongol ambassadors were just spies, no doubt about it.

I dont think it so. The Shah started the provocation by arresting the trade caravan, regardless if they are spies or not. There is already a peace treaty in place before this happened.

If we are going to entertain your nation, As a strategist, Genghis would want to finish off the Jins first before even thinking of diverting his forces somewhere. It would have very least delay any possible invasion for another decade or so.

The Mongols in all sense considered Khwarezmia - Mongols as well since they were nomadic in nature so alliance or unification is always a possibility. Considering they are treated as nomadic equals, Invasion without provocation is also not a possibility.

Alliance is always a possibility regardless in different forms whether a true alliance or a tributary. It clearly shows the Byzantines were better politicians than Khwarezmia.

 

[tenthring]

The only thing stopping the Mongol's is political infighting. It would have to be a POD among the Mongol's.

 

[Elfwine]

The only thing stopping the Mongol's is political infighting. It would have to be a POD among the Mongol's.

Why?

The Mongols weren't invincible even in OTL, even against the very people we're talking about in this conflict.

 

[Razgriz 2K9]

Why?

The Mongols weren't invincible even in OTL, even against the very people we're talking about in this conflict.

True, but they were nigh-unbeatable. Jalal-al-Din, although managing to inflict a defeat on the Mongols at Parwan, was beaten at the Indus Valley (1221), and the Alborz Mts. (mid-1220's). I do have to admit however, Jalal was probably the most capable commander and Khwarazmian ruler during the Mongol invasions, and if he had been given time to consolidate his power, probably would've been considered the single greatest ruler of his dynasty.

 

[Max Sinister]

I'd think too that not provoking the Mongols would be the better move. Then again, I don't know what Genghis' messenger demanded. Did he really tell Choresm (which had two million soldiers at that time) to submit?

 

[Elfwine]

True, but they were nigh-unbeatable. Jalal-al-Din, although managing to inflict a defeat on the Mongols at Parwan, was beaten at the Indus Valley (1221), and the Alborz Mts. (mid-1220's). I do have to admit however, Jalal was probably the most capable commander and Khwarazmian ruler during the Mongol invasions, and if he had been given time to consolidate his power, probably would've been considered the single greatest ruler of his dynasty.

I'm not sure that winning is the same as being unbeatable.

Although I am unable to trace where the reported dispute over a white horse is from (outside wikipedia), that Jalal ad-Din was better as a general than a diplomat is shown by more than just this. If either he's more capable in the latter than OTL or some other factors influence unity against the Mongols, that greatly strengthens the odds.

So just because the Mongols won OTL doesn't mean that they couldn't be defeated.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

I'm not sure that winning is the same as being unbeatable.

Although I am unable to trace where the reported dispute over a white horse is from (outside wikipedia), that Jalal ad-Din was better as a general than a diplomat is shown by more than just this. If either he's more capable in the latter than OTL or some other factors influence unity against the Mongols, that greatly strengthens the odds.

So just because the Mongols won OTL doesn't mean that they couldn't be defeated.

I agree that the Mongols were indeed beatable (even at the height of their power) although usually a matter of opponents winning the proverbial battle but losing the war.
I was under the impression that Jalal had significant numerical supremacy against a secondary Mongol army at Parwan. But more significantly, Jalal had quality issues in the armies that he could raise (disparate tribal levies). This in itself could indicate that a POD where Khwarizim beats the Mongols would be earlier when their best armies were intact.

 

[Elfwine]

I agree that the Mongols were indeed beatable (even at the height of their power) although usually a matter of opponents winning the proverbial battle but losing the war.
I was under the impression that Jalal had significant numerical supremacy against a secondary Mongol army at Parwan. But more significantly, Jalal had quality issues in the armies that he could raise (disparate tribal levies). This in itself could indicate that a POD where Khwarizim beats the Mongols would be earlier when their best armies were intact.

That may be true. Although from what I've read, their armies were generally Turks from the steppes (What's now the -stans north of Iran), so they might not be all that different, except in regards to what kind of tribal warriors.

 

[Grouchio]

The Khwarezmians could also halt the Mongols if Genghis died before 1215 or so and if one of his sons led the invasion instead...possibly...

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

The Khwarezmians could also halt the Mongols if Genghis died before 1215 or so and if one of his sons led the invasion instead...possibly...

Except Subutai would be leading the armies. The Khwarezm would get a reprieve as the Mongols would have to choose their new leader, but they'd be coming back with Subutai leading the vanguard against them (if not the whole army) as he did IOTL.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Except Subutai would be leading the armies. The Khwarezm would get a reprieve as the Mongols would have to choose their new leader, but they'd be coming back with Subutai leading the vanguard against them (if not the whole army) as he did IOTL.

Subatai! Game over, man. Game over.

Well, he never lost a major battle OTL but (almost) every genius general loses sometime.....

 

[Russian]

I'd think too that not provoking the Mongols would be the better move. Then again, I don't know what Genghis' messenger demanded. Did he really tell Choresm (which had two million soldiers at that time) to submit?

First of all two million soldiers is ridiculous. Even if you count adult men able to carry a sharp stick and a stone as soldiers.

As a matter of fact we know surprisingly little about this incident. We even do not know if it was a decision of Chorezm Shah himself or it was an initiative of his local governor.
But we do know that before that for a few years the Mongol armies had moved freely in the area North from the Choresmian Empire sometimes extremely close to it's borders and these areas might be considered as spheres of his influence by Shah. The Mongols chased their enemies who tried to flee from the wrath of Gengizz Khan for hundreds and hundreds of miles killing and looting on their way.
It does not take a genius to guess who will be the next target of the Mongols in the West.
And Khorezm Shah Muhammed was not stupid, he was a talented general and politician.
You see Gengis Khan never tried to conceal his intention to make the Mongols the rulers of the world. It was not just one more steppe tribal confederation trying to bite off a piece of China. Gengis Khan wanted to unite all the steppe peoples and to lead them against the sedentary civilizations.
You may compare him with Adolf Hitler who from the very beginning was about World War and World domination. He said about it, he wrote about it, he did everything, everything possible in that direction. But some people just did not want to see it, and some saw it.
My guess Shah Muhhamed was that wise man who saw the truth - the conflict was inevitable.

As for execution of the Mongol embassy we also know nothing. We know only the Mongol version of the events, but that was propaganda. The steppe peoples were very sensitive about such things as unprovoked murder of their traders and ambassadors. That needed immediate reaction, called for revenge, and what is important made this war justified by the Heaven. Some kind of steppe Crusade - the Heaven is on our side against the dirty bastards.
But we know that after that the Mongols used this trick on a permanent basis - they send their ambassadors with the demands which were intentionally unacceptable and humiliating - the ambassadors lost their heads or noses or both - and here we are, we've got another steppe Crusade. Nice trick (though I personally would not want to be a Mongolian ambassador, kind of lousy job with low life expectancy).
So my guess that there might be something intentionally insulting in the message of Gengizz Khan. He might not exactly demand him to submit, but he might call Kharezm Shah "my son" or something like that - and Muhammad had to react violently as it was an open challenge. So this embassy was a suicide mission.