AHC: Keep the revolver the primary side-arm for American police officers

Just because it doesn't work one time doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out.
You'd need a string of consistent and catastrophic failures, to start looking at replacing them in that case.

In 1974 Princess Anne was nearly kidnapped and her protection officers gun jammed. Police had started adopting autos in the early 70s but they ended up keeping revolvers till the late 90s
 
Mind you the gun that jammed in 1974 was a Walther PPK which is a jam looking to happen. I was issued one once went click as often as it went bang.
 
If the automatic gets an image problem as the weapon of criminals, to the point where people instantly see it and think "SH**!" or even just tense up, then the revolver might stay longer. Police are, in the end, funded locally.
When the cop has to interact with someone, the interaction goes better if they aren't already extra nervous because the cop is carrying a gun that makes them instinctively think "CRIMINAL!"
If the cop on the street today showed up with an assault rifle slung, people today would be more nervous than one without...same principle could apply.
 
. . . firearms possession is viewed as a Constitutional right, as a last hedge against a corrupt govt. Various examples of people taking up arms in the US exist, such as these : http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-violent-uprisings-in-the-united-states. . .
I hope we as citizens put the majority of our emphasis on such things as generators, ham radios, community newspapers.

And not waiting until things have to get extremely bad, I hope we as citizens take the lead in matter-of-factly addressing and substantially solving such problems as the slow erosion of middle-class jobs.
 

Puzzle

Donor
If the cop on the street today showed up with an assault rifle slung,
Honestly I'm more comfortable with long guns than pistols. I grew up shooting clay pigeons in the backyard and have shot rifles before, so I have a better association with them, I've used them for fun. Pistols on the other hand are strictly weapons to me, and they creep me out a bit more.

It's not really rational I'll admit, if a cop is toting around an AR there's probably a much better reason to worry, but the public image might not be what you think universally.
 

Deleted member 94680

The death knell for the revolver as the police weapon of choice was a study done in the mid-late 70s by the NYPD. After looking at Officer Involved Shooting, not just in NYC, but wherever the could get good data... <snip>

Would it be plausible to butterfly the study away? Make it so vested interests prevent it from going ahead or it’s findings being published?
 
Honestly I'm more comfortable with long guns than pistols. I grew up shooting clay pigeons in the backyard and have shot rifles before, so I have a better association with them, I've used them for fun. Pistols on the other hand are strictly weapons to me, and they creep me out a bit more.

It's not really rational I'll admit, if a cop is toting around an AR there's probably a much better reason to worry, but the public image might not be what you think universally.

No public image is universal, of course. A transition could happen in some areas, but not others, depending on the mentality of the region. I could see the revolver being seen as the symbol of the small town cop, and the automatic being seen as a sign that the cops are likely to need their weapons regularly, in a big city or a high crime region.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Your Welcome. And yes, it does.

To Calbear's points, good info. We switched to combat courses in the late seventies, using the Navy F course (basic marksmanship) as a precursor. According to the old CPO and CWO's who taught me, the courses were developed with the FBI. If you have a link to that NYPD study, I'd love to read it.
Unfortunately I do not have a link. I read the report, actually excerpts of it, in the early 80s. I can't even recall where I ran across it except it was in a book and not a magazine.
 
In regards to the tragedy in Las Vegas, let us simply say that we will endeavor to keep the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers.

And let us endeavor not to use this tragedy to illustrate political positions, even really heartfelt positions, for at least a couple of days. We have done good in this regard so far, and let's keep doing good.
 
Last edited:
In regards to the tragedy in Las Vegas, let us simply say that we will endeavor to keep the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers.

And let us endeavor not to use this tragedy to illustrate political positions, even really heartfelt positions, for at least a couple of days. We have done good in this regard so far, and let's keep doing good.
Thumbs up from Sin City.
 
Mind you the gun that jammed in 1974 was a Walther PPK which is a jam looking to happen. I was issued one once went click as often as it went bang.

A friend owned a gun club with a shop attached and took a PPK in part-ex. He had to test it out to make sure there were no issues, after 5 rounds it had "bitten" the web of his hand so many times he was worried he would get rabies. He said the last round down range was almost followed by the pistol.

The reliability of modern semi-autos seem to be beyond the capabilities of older weapons.
 
A friend owned a gun club with a shop attached and took a PPK in part-ex. He had to test it out to make sure there were no issues, after 5 rounds it had "bitten" the web of his hand so many times he was worried he would get rabies. He said the last round down range was almost followed by the pistol.

The reliability of modern semi-autos seem to be beyond the capabilities of older weapons.

No idea how Walther sold so many PPKs when you could have bought a nice reliable ergonomic Beretta 1935 or Colt 1903. Probably the old German VunderVeapon schtick.
 
No idea how Walther sold so many PPKs when you could have bought a nice reliable ergonomic Beretta 1935 or Colt 1903. Probably the old German VunderVeapon schtick.

Bond.
James Bond.

that, and US laws allow the domestic production of the PPKS in the US.
So why bother importing the guns when you can just make them?
 
In 1974 Princess Anne was nearly kidnapped and her protection officers gun jammed. Police had started adopting autos in the early 70s but they ended up keeping revolvers till the late 90s

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Catastrophe forces change.
Chaos catalysises creativity.

You need a well-publicized disaster/crime/fire/riot/mud-slide/famine ....... to shake people out of their current rut and think about changing their ways.

I can see semi-automatic pistols stereotyped (by Hollywood) as "gangster/rum-runner/smuggler weapons" while the "good guys" carry "serious rifles."
The media can convince the public that pistols may be easily concealed but their hopeless inaccuracy (compared to rifles) limits their use to desperate, bumbling criminals.
 
. . . This was THE takeway discovery. The individual who fired the most rounds in the engagement almost always was the one who survived. No matter how they tried to come up with some other factor; training, equipment, prior service, you name it, nothing changed that simple fact. . . .
Police departments really should endeavor to explain this to people, because often it looks terrible when someone gets pumped full of bullets.

And couldn't we argue causation vs. correlation? In that the person who stays alive and functional, maybe for specific tactical reasons, is likely to also be the person who fires more shots.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Police departments really should endeavor to explain this to people, because often it looks terrible when someone gets pumped full of bullets.

And couldn't we argue causation vs. correlation? In that the person who stays alive and functional, maybe for specific tactical reasons, is likely to also be the person who fires more shots.
No one wants to hear the reason the police shot the suspect 42 times. They expect the police to be able to shoot the gun out of the offenders hand, just like in the movies. They especially don't want to hear it when, far too often it turns out the suspect was armed with a cell phone or a toy gun with the orange tip painted over.

As far a whether the data is due to one party living longer, that was not discussed. It really doesn't matter, in the end, shoot the most = staying alive.
 
. . . or a toy gun with the orange tip painted over. . .
well, since you bring it up, in the Tamir Rice case in Cleveland, the officer driving drove up so that when his partner opened the passenger door, he had no cover whatsoever. In poker terms, it was appalling pre-flop play (and poker being best decision theory we have going these days, honest to gosh)
 
Top