AHC: Keep the Papacy in Avignon

How could the Pope have remain in Avignon once the Schism ends rather than returning to Rome? what would be the far reaching effects?
 

Redhand

Banned
If the French are somehow able to conquer a lot of Italy during the Avignon Papacy, the balance of power could permanently shift to Avignon.

Or, you could have the Byzantines enter Italy in force after avoiding the 1340s civil war and cause the Papacy to move to Avignon permanently out of security reason.
 
The Pope is Bishop of Rome, that's why he's Pope. If he isn't in Rome, his legitimacy is very weakened.

It really would take a non-Catholic takeover of southern Italy to achieve this. Probably Muslims, conceivably Byzantium. But how do you get that?
 
And even for Byzantines...

The opposition to the status of Pope by Orthodoxes is a bit exagerated - from what I got, the Orthodoxes refuse the 'primacy' of the Bishop-Patriarch of Rome, but they consider the position legit per see, I think.

Itally in the hands of the Emperor of Byzance, the Pope's powers would be surely quite reduced, but they would let him there. Why not? He is one of the Old Grand Patriarches.

Now, if butterflies do not change the apparitions of Protestantism per se...
How about (ASB surely) that native form of proto-Protestantism called.. Walderanism(?) maybe? maybe by some weird and improbable twist of fate, a local power or such take a liking to it, and use it to gain some creed and legimacy...

Very improbable, for sure..
 
You'd need a successful Muslim invasion if you're talking something medieval.

If you want to go for something more off the wall and 19th century a successful Socialist or Communist revolution in Italy that's strong enough to stay in the saddle could do it and France offers Avignon as a renewed Papal residence.
 
You'd need a successful Muslim invasion if you're talking something medieval.

If you want to go for something more off the wall and 19th century a successful Socialist or Communist revolution in Italy that's strong enough to stay in the saddle could do it and France offers Avignon as a renewed Papal residence.

Considering the legacy of those days and the legacy of the French Revolution and such, maybe the Pope would go to another place than Avignon... Like Spain or Portugal by example.
 
Considering the legacy of those days and the legacy of the French Revolution and such, maybe the Pope would go to another place than Avignon... Like Spain or Portugal by example.

Agreed, it would take a very precise and unlikely chain of events to make returning to Avignon post-Schism assuming the Papacy stays in Rome a viable, desirable option in the event of losing the Vatican to a hostile power.
 
And even for Byzantines...

The opposition to the status of Pope by Orthodoxes is a bit exagerated - from what I got, the Orthodoxes refuse the 'primacy' of the Bishop-Patriarch of Rome, but they consider the position legit per see, I think.

Itally in the hands of the Emperor of Byzance, the Pope's powers would be surely quite reduced, but they would let him there. Why not? He is one of the Old Grand Patriarches.
Oh, Byzantium would let him stay, no question. WOULD he stay? THAT's the question.

Because a Pope under the Byzantine Empire would be merely one Patriarch among several, and would be expected to toe the line more or less.

Considering how hot and bothered the Popes got with (comparitively minimal) interference from the Holy Roman Emperor through history, I doubt that the Pope would accept the conditions required to stay in a Byzantine ruled Rome.

I suspect that you'd end up with a 'Pope' in e.g. Avignon, and a 'Patriarch of Rome' in Rome in such a case.
 
At the time of the Great Western Schism there were a claimant in Avignon and one in Rome, both claiming to be the true and only pope (and after the council of Pisa there was even a third claimant). Which one of these claimants is the true pope is quite debatable.

Incidentally this sudden proliferation of popes opened (and the parlous state of the HRE) up a very interesting window of opportunity for Gian Galeazzo Visconti who managed to become lord of the greatest part of northern and central Italy. If he does not die suddenly at the end of 1402 it is quite likely he can manage to consolidate his domains and groom up one of his sons as his heir: when he died (of plague, malaria or poison, choose yor pick) he was just 50 years old and giving him another 10-15 years it is not too much of a stretch. A surviving Gian Gleazzo might also mean that the schism is not composed in 1420 and papacy is substantially weakened.
 
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