AHC: Keep the London Underground as the largest RTS in the world

[Devvy]

-The Metropolitan Railway tried to extent the GNCR to Waterloo after it bought the company, but couldn't get the wayleaves from the properties it ran under IIRC. Before the Northern Heights Scheme of the 1930s there were two proposals to electrify the GNR lines that the scheme would take over. First by the GNCR and then the GNR had Dick, Kerr do a feasibility study using the 4-rail DC system so its trains could run over parts of the Circle Line.

I'm not sure that's even possible; the Northern City Line is above the Northern Line between Old Street and Moorgate, so you can't easily go down without burrowing down north of Old Street and wasting 2 existing sets of platforms (not cheap!). And at Moorgate, it's close to the surface and thus has all the problems of foundations to avoid, huge buildings above, and the mess of lines around Bank. The vaults of the BoE stretch around there as well; I'm not sure where or how far out they spread, but the BoE aren't going to want lines next door to them I wouldn't have thought.

-Then there is the Wimbledon to Sutton Line. Make that part of the District Line instead of the Southern Railway. And extend the Northern Line to a terminus with the Sutton Line.

I think that was originally meant for the Northern Line - to run on from Morden and operate down to Sutton. Can't remember why it never happened though. Would have been a hell of a ride from St Helier to Bank though.

 

[Sycamore]

So does anyone think that either option b) or c) are possible? For the London Underground to still have the greatest number of stations, or the highest annual ridership, of any rapid transit system in the world by the present day?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Originally Posted by NOMISYRRUC
-The Metropolitan Railway tried to extent the GNCR to Waterloo after it bought the company, but couldn't get the wayleaves from the properties it ran under IIRC. Before the Northern Heights Scheme of the 1930s there were two proposals to electrify the GNR lines that the scheme would take over. First by the GNCR and then the GNR had Dick, Kerr do a feasibility study using the 4-rail DC system so its trains could run over parts of the Circle Line.

I'm not sure that's even possible; the Northern City Line is above the Northern Line between Old Street and Moorgate, so you can't easily go down without burrowing down north of Old Street and wasting 2 existing sets of platforms (not cheap!). And at Moorgate, it's close to the surface and thus has all the problems of foundations to avoid, huge buildings above, and the mess of lines around Bank. The vaults of the BoE stretch around there as well; I'm not sure where or how far out they spread, but the BoE aren't going to want lines next door to them I wouldn't have thought.

IIRC the Moorgate to Waterloo extension of the GNCR was mentioned in Rails Through The Clay by O.S. Nock and The Subterranean Railway by Christian Wolmar. Again IIRC the proposal was made when the Metropolitan bought the GNCR, which I think was about 1913. Had the Northern Tubes been built then? Maybe it was the BoE that would not grant the wayleave.

Again IIRC Wolmar said not building it deprived London of a useful through route.

Then there is the Aldwych branchette of the Piccadilly Line. It might be possible to extend that.

 

[Devvy]

IIRC the Moorgate to Waterloo extension of the GNCR was mentioned in Rails Through The Clay by O.S. Nock and The Subterranean Railway by Christian Wolmar. Again IIRC the proposal was made when the Metropolitan bought the GNCR, which I think was about 1913. Had the Northern Tubes been built then? Maybe it was the BoE that would not grant the wayleave.

Again IIRC Wolmar said not building it deprived London of a useful through route.

I'd agree it's deprived London on what would effectively be a useful second Thameslink through the City itself, but the BoE concerns sound right. The GNCR/NCL was supposed to be extended to Lothbury (realistically would probably be joined with Bank), but ended cancelling it:

Work began on the Moorgate Street to Lothbury section but was abandoned almost immediately, with the tunnelling shield left in place at the end of the southbound tunnel just south of Moorgate Street

Interesting that it was cancelled so quickly - my guess is technical issues prevented it. I can't see any other reason why it was started and cancelled so quickly.

Then there is the Aldwych branchette of the Piccadilly Line. It might be possible to extend that.

That definitely - they'd definitely have to do something about Holborn junction though; the track layout appears to have been designed by a 5 year old and is bizarre.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Correction

I made a mistake before. The GNCR Moorgate extension wasn't going to go all the way to Waterloo. There would be an end-on junction with the Waterloo & City Line at Bank. So the W&C tunnels would have to be enlarged to take main line trains and for it to become an early Thameslink or Crossrail a physical connection with the main line network at the southern end would be needed.

The following is not a serious suggestion.

Again IIRC the plan was for the Metropolitan and MSLR to merge when the London Extension was completed. If that had happened the whole GCR could have been included in the London Underground mileage (technically).

Once when I lived in Portugal I was taking part in Ready Salted Mornington Crescent. I put in Marques Pombal as a move quoting a rule that included the obscure Lisbon extension of the Metropolitan Line that Watkin proposed to prevent further expansion of the rival MDR in that direction.

I'm not proposing that, but what if Watkin's Channel Tunnel was built and it was completed in 1900 and he achieved the unification of the Great Central, Metropolitan, East London and South Easter Railways into one company at the end of 1900. Then (technically) the London Underground stretches from Liverpool (Cheshire Lines Committee partly owned by the GCR) via Manchester and Sheffield in the north and south to Calais (the southern end of the Channel Tunnel, which the Watkin Group is also a part owner).

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I just remembered that the plans to extend the Brill Branch to Oxford. If the Metropolitan and GCR hadn't fallen out there might not have been the joint line with the GWR (or the GWR did it on its own). The GCR might have used its portion of the building cost to complete the Oxford extension instead.

 

[British Republic]

Therefore London Overground could qualify as it is; it is managed by the same group as London Underground; unified under Transport for London. It is financially integrated with London Underground, and as far as the passenger is concerned exactly the same thing - bar the fact that Overground trains are bigger. LO adds around another 135 million passengers (2014 figures) to the yearly total, and another 111 stations (including, I think, the Lea Valley expansion).

If we are going to head towards the definition of "Every Rail Service under the control of a metropolitan transportation authority" as having the largest mass transit system in the world, then I suggest doing some comparisons with other cities of the same size.

Greater London

London Underground: 402 km

London Overground: 86 km

TFL Rail: 32 km

Docklands Light Railway: 34 km

Total: 554 km

Using this definition it is just about bigger than either the Beijing Metro or the Shanghai Metro. However both are in the process of considerably expanding their networks so by the end of the decade both would likely over take the total length of the TFL systems as they stand, TFL in turn is building Crossrail and looking to add further existing services and building Crossrail 2

However if we are using that same definition then one can also look at NYC Rail systems under the MTA and the Port Authority (I would also include New Jersey Transit Rail Operations but I cannot find any data for the size of that network):

Greater New York City

New York City Subway = 373 km

Long Island Rail Road: 513 km

Metro-North Railroad: 620 km

Port Authority Trans-Hudson: 23 km

Staten Island Railway: 23 km

Total: 1,552 km

Then one can claim that the city with the largest mass transit system in the world is NYC, likewise even if you don't then the Seoul Metropoltian Subway would beat the systems in London, Beijing and Shanghai with a route length of 984 km...

 

[British Republic]

-IIRC the original Act of Parliament for what became the Bushey Heath branch of the Northern Heights allowed the line to go all the way to Watford.

Did it? Well I suppose it makes sense considering the direction of the proposed line. I assume it would have meant stations in Bushey and Watford Junction. If fact you know what looking at the maps if the Green Belt is scrapped and expanding the London Urban Area is allowed once again to interwar levels., perhaps the Jubilee Line can be extended North from Stanmore to Watford Junction via Bushey and Bushey Heath

 

[Penny for The Guy]

Trivial and Irrelevant Ditty

For some reason, THIS popped into my head.

"Came the day at last

That the complicated system
Exceeded Plausi-bil-ity.
And a chap rode to work on the LU Line
And into History.
Did he ever return?
No, he never returned,
And his fate is still unlearned.
He may ride forever beneath the streets of London,
He’s the man who never returned."
Done to this tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh994JcEfkI
(Yes, I am demented, and not at all serious.)

 

[Devvy]

I just remembered that the plans to extend the Brill Branch to Oxford. If the Metropolitan and GCR hadn't fallen out there might not have been the joint line with the GWR (or the GWR did it on its own). The GCR might have used its portion of the building cost to complete the Oxford extension instead.

The problem with that is that the Metropolitan Railway tried to avoid being subsumed into the London Underground anyway. Extending the MR out to Oxford (via Brill) or other extension this way, just lend more credence to "the MR isn't an underground railway, it's a suburban railway", and may well end up not becoming part of the London Underground. During negotiations, the Govt offered MR continued independence with the caveat of losing their Circle Line running privileges and thus terminating at Baker Street. If this was to happen, I think you'd see a Stanmore to Aldgate service in place as part of London Underground, but the main Baker Street-Uxbridge/Aylesbury/Oxford/Watford services and any others would remain independent - eventually becoming British Rail in all likelihood.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Did it? Well I suppose it makes sense considering the direction of the proposed line. I assume it would have meant stations in Bushey and Watford Junction. If fact you know what looking at the maps if the Green Belt is scrapped and expanding the London Urban Area is allowed once again to interwar levels., perhaps the Jubilee Line can be extended North from Stanmore to Watford Junction via Bushey and Bushey Heath

I don't recall. However, I read it in the David and Charles book on railways around London. My local reference library had a copy and I might be going there to do some book worming this week. If I do, I will look it up.

I do remember that the Act was passed in the 1900s or even 1890s. So if a friendly ASB can provide the money it could be built well before the Green Belt is invented.

 

[fscott]

For some reason, THIS popped into my head.

"Came the day at last

That the complicated system
Exceeded Plausi-bil-ity.
And a chap rode to work on the LU Line
And into History.
Did he ever return?
No, he never returned,
And his fate is still unlearned.
He may ride forever beneath the streets of London,
He’s the man who never returned."
Done to this tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh994JcEfkI
(Yes, I am demented, and not at all serious.)

Plus a amount of borrowing from another song several lines are identical. I am not sue what the amount of something has to have to be plagiarism.

 

[British Republic]

I don't recall. However, I read it in the David and Charles book on railways around London. My local reference library had a copy and I might be going there to do some book worming this week. If I do, I will look it up.

I do remember that the Act was passed in the 1900s or even 1890s. So if a friendly ASB can provide the money it could be built well before the Green Belt is invented.

What was the name of the act in question?