AHC: Keep Saloons Going

... as the major (more than half) locale of public intoxication until at least 1970.

I imagine no Prohibition will be a big part of it, but any details or points of oversight would be much appreciated, i.e. what else would need to be, or likely be, different? (And I understand this will overlap a lot with the "No Prohibition" threads ;))

(JTBC, I'm talking about "Western Saloons", in style at any rate)

EDIT ADD: Oh, and bonus points if you can keep prostitution as a main feature :D
 
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Well it's hard to say. But not knowing much about the subject, I would imagine that the fate of saloons is tied to the frontier. I mean, what really makes the difference between a "saloon" and a "bar" except that in the former, the patrons are all wearing cowboy hats?
 
I mean, what really makes the difference between a "saloon" and a "bar" except that in the former, the patrons are all wearing cowboy hats?

Well, off the top of my head, the big difference was that women "didn't" drink in saloons; also, see the edit add. Batwing doors help too, I suppose...
 
Prohibition changed bars/saloons in at least the following ways -

Women became a staple

Because of that prostitution became less common, in the same establishment (men took that elsewhere...)

Also music became more common, either to dance to or please the womenfolk since you couldn't drink and go anywhere else. you had to drink and stay put, which meant entertainment.

Mixed drinks came about - before prohibition most hard liquor was mostly drank straight but during they had to hide the terrible and poisonous tastes of bootleg liquor so they added flavors

The American lager (crappy flavorless beers) came to be and it also killed off the fledgling wine industry which was beginning to grow. now grapeheads had to wait for napa to come about before they could get some good american wine.

an important part of the saloon was that you'd get drunk and maybe wanna fool around with one of the ladies of the evening, or just wanna pass out, and so they had rooms for rent. speakeasies had no such thing, since they were illegal joints people had to get out of there or be raided on while they were passed out/going at it.

so i think that these are key features of saloons and the modern saloon is the 'dive bar' if you will.

so what you need is no prohibition.

but the western saloon, specifically, requires less government intervention on saloons which either means they be more peaceful business establishments or that there is less regulatory forces over them. only way i see that happening is with a sparser population or a weaker federal government. kinda big changes.
 
Prohibition changed bars/saloons in at least the following ways -

Women became a staple

Because of that prostitution became less common, in the same establishment (men took that elsewhere...)

Also music became more common, either to dance to or please the womenfolk since you couldn't drink and go anywhere else. you had to drink and stay put, which meant entertainment.

Mixed drinks came about - before prohibition most hard liquor was mostly drank straight but during they had to hide the terrible and poisonous tastes of bootleg liquor so they added flavors

The American lager (crappy flavorless beers) came to be and it also killed off the fledgling wine industry which was beginning to grow. now grapeheads had to wait for napa to come about before they could get some good american wine.

an important part of the saloon was that you'd get drunk and maybe wanna fool around with one of the ladies of the evening, or just wanna pass out, and so they had rooms for rent. speakeasies had no such thing, since they were illegal joints people had to get out of there or be raided on while they were passed out/going at it.

so i think that these are key features of saloons and the modern saloon is the 'dive bar' if you will.

With rentable rooms generally, I suppose -- many thanks, this is what I'm looking for :D

so i think that these are key features of saloons and the modern saloon is the 'dive bar' if you will.

Naturellement ;)

but the western saloon, specifically, requires less government intervention on saloons which either means they be more peaceful business establishments or that there is less regulatory forces over them. only way i see that happening is with a sparser population or a weaker federal government. kinda big changes.

Are you referring to the violence that saloons generally saw? Cause moderns bars don't really have a lid on that OTL...
 
Well it's hard to say. But not knowing much about the subject, I would imagine that the fate of saloons is tied to the frontier. I mean, what really makes the difference between a "saloon" and a "bar" except that in the former, the patrons are all wearing cowboy hats?
....Hookers?
 
Well it's hard to say. But not knowing much about the subject, I would imagine that the fate of saloons is tied to the frontier. I mean, what really makes the difference between a "saloon" and a "bar" except that in the former, the patrons are all wearing cowboy hats?

As far as I am concerned, the difference is purely semantic. Before prohibition, the US had a problem with liquor, as juveniles had access and controls were lacking. Instead of imposing the taxes, licenses and age restrictions that would eventually work, Americans went to the extreme of prohibition.

At the repeal of prohibition, many states literally outlawed the use of the word "saloon" for bars to imply a cleaner reputation. As recently as the seventies, advertisers and at least one brewery (Olympia) got into trouble for misuse of the word saloon. Most states today allow the use of saloon again, now that those who remember the days before prohibition are gone.
 
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