AHC: Keep Ruthenia Greek Catholic in Faith

So, everyone on this damned forum knows Ukraine and Belarus are pretty Orthodox Christian. However, back in the good old days of the Commonwealth, an event called the Union of Brest happened, and in it, the Orthodox guys in Ruthenia swore their allegiance to the Pope, while keeping their old Orthodox traditions, just starting the Eastern Catholic Church in Ruthenia. People as far east as Poltava and as far north as Smolensk and Polotsk were Catholics now, but all of that changed with people like Khmelnytsky and Tsar Nicholas I. More or less the sole remnant of this once Catholic Ruthenia is in Galicia, as it was conquered by Austria and thus stayed Catholic, unlike Kiev and the rest of the region that was reconverted to the Orthodox Church following the Partitions.

Links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Brest

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...svg/1500px-Religie_w_I_Rz-plitej_1573.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Religie_w_I_Rz-plitej_1750.svg/1500px-Religie_w_I_Rz-plitej_1750.svg.png

Key:
Off-White: Latin Rite Catholicism
Green: Eastern Orthodoxy
Orange: Greek Rite Catholicism
Blue-Grey: Lutheranism
Purple: Calvinism
 
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Well you saw that bit around Mstislavl (Mscislaw) that was still Orthodox, but from what I know, they were pretty much isolated in their hanging on to the Patriarch while all the other people accepted the Pope instead; besides, that's a pretty small area that was still Orthodox.
I never knew that, I always thought that it was distributed throughout the region, but not an actual majority.
 
Honestly IMO it seems the best to save Ruthenia as Catholic is to keep the Russians out somehow. Best bet would be under Austrian suzerainty under a different partition.
 
People as far east as Poltava and as far north as Smolensk and Polotsk were Catholics now
I am not sure that they became Catholics.
It depends on your definition of being 'Catholic', of course.
Following their old Orthodox traditions in their every day life, they felt alien in the 'true' Catholic church; and they felt that the Orthodox Christians were closer to them, then the Catholic Christians - that's because of similar / same rituals. Rituals is what's important for simple common folks; usually people are not so sure about knowing religious dogmas and did not care too much about swearing alleagance to some guy in Rome.
The 'true' Catholic rites were as alien to them as they were to the Orthodox.

That's why it was so easy to 'convert' those "Greek Catholics" back to the 'true original' Orthodoxy - they just came back to their roots. In the Catholic world the 'Greek Catholics' were a curiosity, second rate Catholics (to say the least); in the Orthodox world the Greek Catholics after "conversion back" into the original Orthodoxy became 100% true Orthodox Christians.
That was a good deal in most cases.

Actually people remembered that they had been true Orthodox of the Greek rite, then they were conquered and they were forced to swear alleagance to Rome.
 
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I am not sure that they became Catholics.
It depends on your definition of being 'Catholic', of course.
Following their old Orthodox traditions in their every day life, they felt alien in the 'true' Catholic church; and they felt that the Orthodox Christians were closer to them, then the Catholic Christians - that's because of similar / same rituals. Rituals is what's important for simple common folks; usually people are not so sure about knowing religious dogmas and did not care too much about swearing alleagance to some guy in Rome.
The 'true' Catholic rites were as alien to them as they were to the Orthodox.

That's why it was so easy to 'convert' those "Greek Catholics" back to the 'true original' Orthodoxy - they just came back to their roots. In the Catholic world the 'Greek Catholics' were a curiosity, second rate Catholics (to say the least); in the Orthodox world the Greek Catholics after "conversion back" into the original Orthodoxy became 100% true Orthodox Christians.
That was a good deal in most cases.

Actually people remembered that they had been true Orthodox of the Greek rite, then they were conquered and they were forced to swear alleagance to Rome.

That's why I mentioned in my earlier post how most people were Greek Catholics while only the aristocracy was really Latin Rite.
 
You'd need to butterfly the migration of Ruthenians into the Americas, where the Latin hierarchy, very big into uniformity in the 19th century, tried to suppress a lot of Eastern Catholic (and Western Catholic customs that weren't Anglo-Irish for that matter) distinctives, which alienated a lot of Ruthenians in the Americas and at home and caused a lot them to renounce allegiance to the Pope. Or you could have an American hierarchy that wasn't as predisposed to think that Catholic culture and Irish culture were one in the same.

Khelminitsky may have wounded the Greek Catholics, but Archbishop John (Ireland) all but mortally wounded them for a long time. Even today, ask an Eastern Catholic what he thinks of Archbishop Ireland, and you'll learn several swear words in a host of languages.
 
In Saskatchewan, there's a huge Ukrainian community, and it's pretty much split Uniate and Orthodox 50:50.

Also. I've got a "Ruthenian Catholic" priest friend who is NOT Ukrainian Catholic, but yet another Uniate branch. (His parishioners were mostly Slovak, IIRC). So, using the term "Ruthenian" in this thread is confusing....
 
In Saskatchewan, there's a huge Ukrainian community, and it's pretty much split Uniate and Orthodox 50:50.

Also. I've got a "Ruthenian Catholic" priest friend who is NOT Ukrainian Catholic, but yet another Uniate branch. (His parishioners were mostly Slovak, IIRC). So, using the term "Ruthenian" in this thread is confusing....

Well, Ruthenia is Ukraine and Byelorussia.
 
Actually in modern age Ruthenia is https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Subcarpathia_Carpatho-Ukraine.svg


Also calle Zakarpadska or Podjarpadska Rus. Was part of Hungarian crown after 1918 till 1939 Czechoslovakia. 1939 to 1944 Hungary took over. Didn't returned to Czechoslovakia but organized plebiscite and annexed.

Actually, that's just the part of Ruthenia in the Carpathian Mountains, called Carpathian Ruthenia. On the Ruthenian Wikipedia page, it says, and I quote "A small part of Rus', probably starting from the 8th–9th centuries, historically belonged mainly to the Kingdom of Hungary, with strong cultural ties both to Ruthenia and Hungary, now in Ukraine as a part of Zakarpattia Oblast", with Rus' meaning Ruthenia. Thus, Carpathian Ruthenia is far from all of Ruthenia.
 
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Actually, that's just the part of Ruthenia in the Carpathian Mountains, called Carpathian Ruthenia. On the Ruthenian Wikipedia page, it says, and I quote "A small part of Rus', probably starting from the 8th–9th centuries, historically belonged mainly to the Kingdom of Hungary, with strong cultural ties both to Ruthenia and Hungary, now in Ukraine as a part of Zakarpattia Oblast", with Rus' meaning Ruthenia. Thus, Carpathian Ruthenia is far from Ruthenia.
Oh I do understand but in last 100 years basically that is area what is or was understand as Ruthenia in modern times. Or maybe I am mistaken. Wouldn't be first time. ;)
 
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