AHC:Keep North Europe Pagan

In This challenge (based off of two separate threads I've made) you must find the most realistic way for north Europe to resist Christianity at least until the 18th century, preferably to modern times. North Europe is roughly above the point where France sort of indents into Germany.
 
No Christianity :p

I dont know about Germania. But I think it could very well survive in Britain and Scandinavia, both are easy to defend. And Scandinavia has a climate thats not exactly perfect for the Romans.
 
Kill Charles Martel at Tours after he beats the Muslim raiders back. No Charles means no Charlemagne which will at the minimum delay the Frankish policy of religious conversion as a tool of foreign policy. This won't stop other missionary activity but most of that stuff prior to the switch in policy to political and economic pressure by the Franks and later the Holy Roman Empire was not terribly effective when it came to converting people, especially in Scandinavia.

This would probably also delay the Viking Age but religious tension plus the Early Medieval Christian tendency to store huge amounts of valuables in unguarded monasteries means sooner or later something is going to spark that off.
 
As was pointed out the last few times, not going to happen.

Can it end up Islamic? Yes. Can it be Jewish? well, maybe. Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are theoretically possible.

But with a PoD after first century CE, Europe isn't going to remain pagan. Even then, if no Christianity, it's far more likely to be some other Eastern religion like Isis or Mithraism.

So, unless you have a PoD that e.g. prevents the rise of the Roman Empire...
 
I think one issue is that European paganisms tended to not be linked to any form of sophisticated state structure (unlike, say, Hinduism, which is the poster child for non-Abrahamic religions resisting Abrahamic ones). Christianity in Europe became very much linked with the ideas of Romanitas that the germanic tribes that swept over the Western Empire all aspired to emulate.
 
As was pointed out the last few times, not going to happen.

Can it end up Islamic? Yes. Can it be Jewish? well, maybe. Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are theoretically possible.

But with a PoD after first century CE, Europe isn't going to remain pagan. Even then, if no Christianity, it's far more likely to be some other Eastern religion like Isis or Mithraism.

So, unless you have a PoD that e.g. prevents the rise of the Roman Empire...

Why is that? Why does Paganism has to be replaced by one of these type of religions you mention? I am not questioning your post: in OTL Paganism was usualy replaced by these types of religion (not only in Europe). I just one to know why do you or other poster think that happened.
 
As was pointed out the last few times, not going to happen.

Can it end up Islamic? Yes. Can it be Jewish? well, maybe. Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are theoretically possible.

But with a PoD after first century CE, Europe isn't going to remain pagan. Even then, if no Christianity, it's far more likely to be some other Eastern religion like Isis or Mithraism.

So, unless you have a PoD that e.g. prevents the rise of the Roman Empire...
You want to prevent the rise of the Roman Empire. See:The Weighted Scales- World Of An Aborted Rome etc
 
Delay Roman official support for Christianity long enough to make it difficult for any Nicea analogue to unite most of Christianity doctrinally.
 
Why is that? Why does Paganism has to be replaced by one of these type of religions you mention? I am not questioning your post: in OTL Paganism was usualy replaced by these types of religion (not only in Europe). I just one to know why do you or other poster think that happened.

As I said, because Christianity, along with the other religions mentioned were well integrated with advanced state and social structures.
 
Why is that? Why does Paganism has to be replaced by one of these type of religions you mention? I am not questioning your post: in OTL Paganism was usualy replaced by these types of religion (not only in Europe). I just one to know why do you or other poster think that happened.

Well, as others have pointed out, partly its a matter of political benefits and support.

But also, 'higher' religions really do have more appel to people, especially when they start settling down into communities and cities. If you look at the Greek gods or the norse, for instance, they were basically barbarian warbands in the sky. They have far more in common with comic book superheroes than with what we think of as 'gods'. If they succeeded at 'pulling a Hinduism' (à la pulling a Meiji), they would, like Hinduism, CEASE to be paganism, and become a higher religion.

Hinduism had the advantage of a long history, constantly evolving substrands, and competition with Buddhism, one of the earliest higher religions, which pushed it to become more sophisticated.

Unfortunately for European paganism, by the time of the Roman empire youve got a horde of competing religions that 'work' for people much better than paganism. Isis, Mithras, Magna Mater, Yahweh, etc.

The Romans attempted to create such a religion consciously with Sol Invictus, but that was too little too late.

Someone did a tl where European paganism did go the Hindu route, but the pod was early enough there was no roman empire, and the whole thing pulled itself together with greek philosophy before all those nascent monotheisms had spread.

Note that the concept of 'higher religion' is not purely a European Christian based concept. It is very closely allied to the 'people of the book' status that Islam grants.
 
So - is it possible to make it happen by combining a couple of these ideas? For example, Zoroastrian dualist ideas got into the background of Slavic pagan mythologies. What if some of the ideas spread, but not the actual gods/entities worshiped in Zoroastrianism. So, the Nordic and Germanic tribes start to think of the world as a struggle between good and evil. Not so far fetched. Maybe they start to associate Odin/Wotan or Thor with the leader of the forces of light. Maybe one of the Jotun gets to be leader of the forces of darkness out to destroy the world. All the other gods and goddesses of Northern Europe begin to get woven into this tapestry of whether or not they support good or evil, and there's a big battle for the world going on, and they're all part of it. Then maybe some charismatic type begins to codify these ideas and they start to catch on. Soon, there's a priesthood. And it's no longer a question of whether you died in battle or not that gets you into Valhalla but whether you led a "good" life and observed certain proper rituals. And not following these rituals and invoking the right gods at certain times and following certain principals in dealing with others is seen as having an effect on the tangible world - allowing "evil" to spread and cause diseases and natural disasters and the like. This idea gets so ingrained with people that they want their rulers to be "good", which means that kings and earls have to observe rituals laid out by the priests, and help support the priesthood who support them in turn.

Then, early Christianity is weakened somehow. Like, maybe the church remains doctrinally fragmented for a bit longer than it did in OTL and there's lots of infighting. When they finally get a majority on board with a partiular doctrine, and start trying to spread beyond the Mediterranean region, they're facing an entrenched religious system in the north. Pagan rulers are reluctant to convert because they fear that their people would revolt if they stop performing the right rituals and invoking the gods.

What do you think, would that do it?

(Sorry for the rambling post. I'm working off the cuff, here.)
 
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