AHC Joseon Korea, Ming China or Qing China invade Japan?

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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The historic invasions in these dynasty eras all went the other direction - how can we reverse this?
 
Yeah, the Chinese and Koreans remember what happened under the Yuan, and weren't looking forward to trying again.
Not quite, it's highly possible the Mongolian invasion of Japan was thwarted by a Korean adviser to the Khan who gave wrong information on weather patterns in the area. I think an invasion of Japan is completely possible on that aspect. But of course, considering both Joseon and Ming made conscious efforts to avoid Japanese pirates by conceding territories along the coastline and stopping their people from being attacked(which is the best causus belli that I can think of), it'll be hard to make them go on the offensive...
 
Yeah, the Chinese and Koreans remember what happened under the Yuan, and weren't looking forward to trying again.

Mongols lost due to bad luck on the weather patterns, I thought. And there's islands like Tsushima and Iki that have wokou (the most realistic reason China/Korea might want to invade Japan) and are also easier to attack than Japan itself. And Tsushima actually was attacked by the Koreans precisely because it had wokou bases.

But I think the most potential for anti-wokou campaigns (outside permanent seizure of places like Iki and Tsushima) would be more akin to large-scale raids aimed at attacking ports in mainland Japan that had known or suspected wokou activity. So you'd need a different reason for Korea/China to invade assuming you want something as big as the Imjin War or Mongol Invasions of Japan.
 
It's technically possible for either Joseon or China to successfully invade Japan. All that's missing is the 'why', because Japan doesn't have anything to offer that the mainland don't already have in greater quantities and quality. Wokou raids won't exactly be a good reason to unless more daimyo or even the shogunate actually sponsored them.
 

trurle

Banned
The gold may become the reason for the invasion to Japan. I remember the Tokugawa shogunate had very strictly enforced rules forbidding geologic exploration and capping the maximal output of the mines. This opens the way for conflict.

For example..some chancy South Kyushu daimyo discover a Hishikari gold deposit around 1648. And used it to hire foreign mercenaries, ultimately challenging the authority of Shogun in an over-inflated and more successful Keian Uprising. Japan sliding rapidly into chaos, and foreign mercenaries and then regular armies step in to control the gold flow from the Hishikari mine. The invaders may be both Joseon Koreans and recently-appeared Qing Chinese who still have a lot of excess troops left from recent Manchus conquest of China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keian_Uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hishikari_mine
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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some chancy South Kyushu daimyo discover a Hishikari gold deposit around 1648. And used it to hire foreign mercenaries, ultimately challenging the authority of Shogun in an over-inflated and more successful Keian Uprising. Japan sliding rapidly into chaos, and foreign mercenaries and then regular armies step in to control the gold flow from the Hishikari mine. The invaders may be both Joseon Koreans and recently-appeared Qing Chinese who still have a lot of excess troops left from recent Manchus conquest of China.

That is just awesome! I'd love to see a TL on this!
 

trurle

Banned
That is just awesome! I'd love to see a TL on this!
May be i`ll write something about it in a week or so.
After brief investigation, seems to have a genuine POD in 1643 when Mitsuhisa Shimazu of Satsuma domain was forced by Shogunate to close his gold mine in Satsuma, Kagoshima. Given the power and position of his clan, alternative decision back in 1643 may result in divergent history even without Hishikari gold deposit discovery.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/島津光久
 
The problem is why, the Ming had bigger concerns with their North, then to really screw around with the idea of invading Japan. Joseon and Ming would probably suffer if did try to invade considering your talking about a time period where Japanese clans are busy fighting one another and least gives them skilled and tested troops not to mention the shit ton of castles an invader would have to take.

The Qing is very interesting because advantages are gone by then. The Tokugawa made the one castle one province system, and the last major conflict was just battles between two groups of factions but not too long after the heyday of the Samurai as warriors. that gold mine looks like a good PoD to start.
 
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