AHC: JFK, LBJ, RFK

Here's a possible map, with Kennedy picking Carl Sanders as his running mate. Either he wins CA due to Hispanics and blacks in LA County outnumbering NoCa suburbanites (Nixon won the general 47-44, RFK the primary 46-42, so Pure Tossup), or loses CA but sweeps the Rust Belt excepting IN (where Nixon- unopposed in the primary- ran 500,000 ahead of the Democratic total) while eking out GA due to Sanders' popularity.

genusmap.php


(D) Kennedy/Sanders: 287 EV
(R) Nixon/Agnew: 206 EV
(AI): Wallace/Lemay: 45 EV
 
A minor nitpick is you have to change a lot of things in 68 for RFK to win.

He had little chance for nomination and LBJ would have slit his throat in November if he had.
 
A minor nitpick is you have to change a lot of things in 68 for RFK to win.

He had little chance for nomination and LBJ would have slit his throat in November if he had.

Welcome to AH.com tiggerfan. Being new, you may not be aware yet that RogueBeaver is our resident authority on all things Kennedy.
 
A minor nitpick is you have to change a lot of things in 68 for RFK to win.

He had little chance for nomination and LBJ would have slit his throat in November if he had.

Fair enough. However, a few counter-points:

1) IIRC, LBJ didn't like Nixon much better than he liked RFK, and I think it was for the same reasons (both RFK and Nixon were very obvious opportunists, both very politically ruthless, which LBJ despised in an ironic sense). LBJ would have hated the 1968 election if Bobby had won the nomination. I think he'd stay very quiet during the election, with the slight possibility of not voting on Election Day.

2) LBJ wasn't too powerful this late in his presidency. He was quasi-primaried, for God's sake: Not too many Dems are going to take him too seriously. Not to say he wasn't behind a good number of "powers," though...
 
The problem is, that say JFK lives, you need Johnson to win in 1968. That's possible if the GOP nominates someone unelectable. I think you'd need Rockefeller in 64 and Goldwater in 68 to ensure the election of Johnson.

Johnson wins in 68 and dies mid-term, leaving his VP (say Humphrey, for argument's sake), to lose in 72 to a Republican candidate (who wouldn't necessarily be Nixon, but maybe). RFK, who has his had his Senate run delayed by JFK living, wins in 1976 or 1980.

Basically, I don't know how it happens without JFK living.
 
JFK doesn't get assassinated in 1963, wins re-election in 1964. Viet Nam goes better under Kennedy, economy is going steady, and a ticket of LBJ and RFK win the White House in 1968.

Johnson dies in office in 1971. Bobby Kennedy is now President.

List of Presidents of the United States
1961-1969: John F. Kennedy (Democrat) [1]
1969-1971: Lyndon B. Johnson (Democrat) [2]
1971-1981: Robert F. Kennedy (Democrat)
1981-1989: George H.W. Bush (Republican)
1989-1997: Edward M. Kennedy (Democrat)
1997-2005: Al Gore (Democrat)
2005-2009: Joe Lieberman (Democrat) [3]
2009-present: John McCain (Republican)

[1] First Roman Catholic President.

[2] Dies in office.

[3] First Jewish President.
 
JFK doesn't get assassinated in 1963, wins re-election in 1964. Viet Nam goes better under Kennedy, economy is going steady, and a ticket of LBJ and RFK win the White House in 1968.

Johnson dies in office in 1971. Bobby Kennedy is now President.

A LBJ-RFK ticket in '68? :eek: Now that's ASB!
 
Welcome to AH.com tiggerfan. Being new, you may not be aware yet that RogueBeaver is our resident authority on all things Kennedy.

That I agree with.

Fair enough. However, a few counter-points:

1) IIRC, LBJ didn't like Nixon much better than he liked RFK, and I think it was for the same reasons (both RFK and Nixon were very obvious opportunists, both very politically ruthless, which LBJ despised in an ironic sense). LBJ would have hated the 1968 election if Bobby had won the nomination. I think he'd stay very quiet during the election, with the slight possibility of not voting on Election Day.

2) LBJ wasn't too powerful this late in his presidency. He was quasi-primaried, for God's sake: Not too many Dems are going to take him too seriously. Not to say he wasn't behind a good number of "powers," though...

Agreed. But, as LBJ was very much a party man, he might have grudgingly voted for RFK.
 
Here's a possible map, with Kennedy picking Carl Sanders as his running mate. Either he wins CA due to Hispanics and blacks in LA County outnumbering NoCa suburbanites (Nixon won the general 47-44, RFK the primary 46-42, so Pure Tossup), or loses CA but sweeps the Rust Belt excepting IN (where Nixon- unopposed in the primary- ran 500,000 ahead of the Democratic total) while eking out GA due to Sanders' popularity.

genusmap.php


(D) Kennedy/Sanders: 287 EV
(R) Nixon/Agnew: 206 EV
(AI): Wallace/Lemay: 45 EV

Maine wouldn't go Democratic without Muskie
 
Actually Nixon and LBJ were close friends, even if they were political rivals.

As to RFK in 68. Yes LBJ had less influence in 68 than he had in 64. But in 1968 we're talking pre McGovern-Fraser. Many delegations were still machine controlled (esp in South) and LBJ held those in an iron grip.

They were enough to give HHH the nod. Remember that as long as RFK and McCarthy split anti admin vote, it's tough to beat Hubert.

But I don't want to derail the thread so...

Fair enough. However, a few counter-points:

1) IIRC, LBJ didn't like Nixon much better than he liked RFK, and I think it was for the same reasons (both RFK and Nixon were very obvious opportunists, both very politically ruthless, which LBJ despised in an ironic sense). LBJ would have hated the 1968 election if Bobby had won the nomination. I think he'd stay very quiet during the election, with the slight possibility of not voting on Election Day.

2) LBJ wasn't too powerful this late in his presidency. He was quasi-primaried, for God's sake: Not too many Dems are going to take him too seriously. Not to say he wasn't behind a good number of "powers," though...
 
Actually Nixon and LBJ were close friends, even if they were political rivals.

As to RFK in 68. Yes LBJ had less influence in 68 than he had in 64. But in 1968 we're talking pre McGovern-Fraser. Many delegations were still machine controlled (esp in South) and LBJ held those in an iron grip.

They were enough to give HHH the nod. Remember that as long as RFK and McCarthy split anti admin vote, it's tough to beat Hubert.

But I don't want to derail the thread so...

Not really. Just let the Kennedy people in LBJ's administration be more vocal about Vietnam, Tip O'Neill vote against Gulf of Tonkin, and we never really increase our involvement in Vietnam to OTL extent, but Johnson's mark is left on Great Society and Civil Rights, not Vietnam. Johnson decides not to run again for health reasons, Humphrey can't beat Kennedy in the primaries, Kennedy wins the middle flank of the Democrats, Humphrey the old guard, and Eugene the New Left. Then, use RB's map.
 
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