AHC: Jewish Medieval Kingdom, with a twist

Onyx

Banned
You heard me, we're going to defy all known logic in Medieval Christendom, scare the Pope, and piss off those filthy, fervant peasants! A plausible Jewish Kingdom smack dab in Israel (Bonus points if you can get those Khazars in there too as Semitic to be allies).

And the twist, we're going to have that Israeli-Jewish Kingdom to have the most sophisticated knowledge and a bliss of Renaissance. Im not saying Da Vinci Helicopters or Clockwork Zombie Soldiers. I mean like the first nation to use gunpowder weaponry, health, philosophy, basically a better Constantinople for Jews.

Anyone accept this?
 
Sound like one of my wish-fulfillment fantasies. :)
If you can come up with more detailed, plausible POD, I'll read this.
Have you seen the beginnings of the Jewish Mongol TL on this board?
 
You heard me, we're going to defy all known logic in Medieval Christendom, scare the Pope, and piss off those filthy, fervant peasants! A plausible Jewish Kingdom smack dab in Israel (Bonus points if you can get those Khazars in there too as Semitic to be allies).

And the twist, we're going to have that Israeli-Jewish Kingdom to have the most sophisticated knowledge and a bliss of Renaissance. Im not saying Da Vinci Helicopters or Clockwork Zombie Soldiers. I mean like the first nation to use gunpowder weaponry, health, philosophy, basically a better Constantinople for Jews.

Anyone accept this?

How early can the POD be?

You know the standard problems, of course: while not too important in itself, the Holy Land lies at the crossroads of empires, linking Anatolia, Syria, and Mesopotamia to Egypt; furthermore, there are religious reasons why two vastly more powerful religious-civilizations want exactly this piece of ground.
 
If the Khazars are involved it's going to need to be sometime in the 8th to 10th century period when they are at the height of power. But you have a very strong Caliphate (unless it is in a period of political in-fighting) to confront and the Byzantines more likely than not are not going to fight for or ally with the Jews.
 

Onyx

Banned
How early can the POD be?

You know the standard problems, of course: while not too important in itself, the Holy Land lies at the crossroads of empires, linking Anatolia, Syria, and Mesopotamia to Egypt; furthermore, there are religious reasons why two vastly more powerful religious-civilizations want exactly this piece of ground.

As early as the Medieval Ages are said to be started, if worst comes to worse, then you have my permission to be as early as it needs to be
 
Best thing I can think of (mind you, it's still insane) is that the Crusaders and the Muslims come to some sort of agreement that if they can't both have the Holy Land, neither can have it. For some reason the idea of setting up some sort of weird joint religious authority is denied, and the need is felt to establish a feudal kingdom. That means, of course, that there's only one valid choice. Basically the Khazar dilemma, but in a different location, and externally implemented. But I'm strongly doubtful that such a kingdom would be advanced and powerful. Assuming boundaries roughly congruent to the Kingdom of David, we're looking at a pretty small nation and frankly, most of the Jews' "specialness" comes from being strangers in a strange land.

Still, if they could make themselves the place for peaceful interaction between Muslims and Christians, establishing themselves as a center for international trade of goods and ideas, it might work...

But seriously, this is ASB.
 

Onyx

Banned
Best thing I can think of (mind you, it's still insane) is that the Crusaders and the Muslims come to some sort of agreement that if they can't both have the Holy Land, neither can have it. For some reason the idea of setting up some sort of weird joint religious authority is denied, and the need is felt to establish a feudal kingdom. That means, of course, that there's only one valid choice. Basically the Khazar dilemma, but in a different location, and externally implemented. But I'm strongly doubtful that such a kingdom would be advanced and powerful. Assuming boundaries roughly congruent to the Kingdom of David, we're looking at a pretty small nation and frankly, most of the Jews' "specialness" comes from being strangers in a strange land.

Still, if they could make themselves the place for peaceful interaction between Muslims and Christians, establishing themselves as a center for international trade of goods and ideas, it might work...

But seriously, this is ASB.


Well I can say that if to get a Jewish Medieval State is impossible in Medieval Times, then think of a scenario that can be early enough to say Roman Times
 
In 1290 King Edward I (Longshanks) introduced to Europe a new game called expell the jew. Most of the English Jews of this time ended up in France and the game quickly caught on with the French the Germans the Dutch the Spanish etc each expelling some or all of their jewish population over the next 400 years.

Now suppose instead of just expelling them Edward exiled them to an island,
I'm thinking the Isle of Man nominally own by Scotland or better yet Iceland.

Over time the original Jewish exiles, their children and following waves of exile dominate the island leading to a Jewish Kingdom.

The advantage of Iceland is the possibility of expending to North America and wth Jewish vikings hey Yarmulkas with horns.

The Isle of Man is smaller, but surrounded be Scotland Wales England and Ireland so has a built in position of power.
 

Onyx

Banned
In 1290 King Edward I (Longshanks) introduced to Europe a new game called expell the jew. Most of the English Jews of this time ended up in France and the game quickly caught on with the French the Germans the Dutch the Spanish etc each expelling some or all of their jewish population over the next 400 years.

Now suppose instead of just expelling them Edward exiled them to an island,
I'm thinking the Isle of Man nominally own by Scotland or better yet Iceland.

Over time the original Jewish exiles, their children and following waves of exile dominate the island leading to a Jewish Kingdom.

The advantage of Iceland is the possibility of expending to North America and wth Jewish vikings hey Yarmulkas with horns.

The Isle of Man is smaller, but surrounded be Scotland Wales England and Ireland so has a built in position of power.


You forgot that I said that it has to be the Holy Land...
 

Onyx

Banned
Which is impossible to actually pull off for more than about 30 minutes given the terrain and it's strategic value.

Jesus did you not look above the post and see what I said, Ill say it again
Well I can say that if to get a Jewish Medieval State is impossible in Medieval Times, then think of a scenario that can be early enough to say Roman Times
 

birdboy2000

Banned
Persia did occupy Israel in the Persian-Byzantine wars and appointed a Jewish governor, who provoked the Christians to riot and the city was put back under Christian administration. If Persia can win that war decisively, repel or butterfly the Islamic conquests, and the local Jews do a better job of not driving the Christians to revolt, the Jews can regain enough of a presence in Israel for them to establish a state when the Sassanids decline.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Jesus did you not look above the post and see what I said, Ill say it again

Even then, it's still not doable. Afterall, it's the crossroads of the world, a place that over the next few centuries would be contested by the Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Hellenistic Egyptians, Turks, and the list goes on. The Hasmoneans were pretty much the only independent rulers of the territory from 609bc to 1949 (~2560 years,) and they only managed to pull it off for only about 47 years (between the collapse of the Selucids in 110 and the conquest by Rome in 63.)

So, only for about 1.9% of that entire stretch of history was Judea an actually independent state.
 
For short term in Roman times, how about:

Brutus and Octavius die at First Phillippi; Cassius survives.

Cassius manages to pull off a decisive victory at Second Phillippi; Marc Antony is arrested and executed as a traitor.

As the Republican loyalists reclaim Italia, the peninsula is thrown into chaos; much of Rome is destoroyed in an out-of-control fire that many blame on the advancing Republicans,

Cassius winds up spending a few decades as Dictator for Life. He manages to get himself hated by virtually everyone, killing all his perceived enemies, engaging in costly, unrewarding military ventures, etc.

When Cassius suddenly dies of old age, Rome falls to a massive Civil War between anyone and everyone who can rustle up the support of a legion or two.

In the chaos, the Zealots manage to launch a general uprising that defeats the local legions. Judea being very much a backwater, none of the surrounding powers want to spend the energy to wipe them out.

The new Jewish Kingdom slinks out of sight, as a Cold War-ish situation develops amongst the Diadochi-like Roman successor states.

Judea is probably doomed anyway, but at least they can spend some time independent.
 
ಠ_ಠ

Is there anyway to get the Jews to meet an advanced state of gunpowder, health, etc?

Also recall that without the exile and the various professional restrictions, the Jews are just a highly-centralized pseudotheocratic farming society. Nothing particularly special aside from unusually high literacy - which by itself in a small, pastoral state probably isn't enough.
 
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