AHC: Japanese Empire plus economic miracle and cultural liberalization of the 60s?

[Modern Imperialism]

I've seen this argument before. I'd never call a collapsing economy, declining production, increasing rationing, reduction in training, ect... carrying on.

For this pod you can start anywhere from emperor Meiji to after. Japan can be militaristic and capitalist.

Couldn’t Japanese propaganda start depicting Americans as separate from Europeans more so then otl? The Japanese try to compare the Coprosperity sphere and “Asia for Asians” as the same as Monroe doctrine and manifest destiny? The Japanese military and emperor still go after Europeans like otl but do everything in its power to make US more friendly towards them or at least passive enough where they will trade with them even when they are killing a bunch of Chinese.

The Japanese could even publicly state how “Americas belong to US is how Japan should be in the Far East”. American government might not buy too much into it but it does change narratives and how they deal with Americans on a more individual/business level. If the US looks the other way to Japanese in interwar years they could drive Europeans out of the Far East for the most part especially if they are fighting in Europe.

If they took majority of Pacific north Australia, took Asia east of India, won in China, and avoided trouble with Americans even if they still beat Nazis in Europe like otl I doubt any European power could go over there and take Japanese outside of US or USSR. But with the right pod they could maybe fight off and make some gains against Soviets as well but that might require different treaties out east after ww1 or more successful 1905.

Japanese Empire and co prosperity sphere could be introduced to American capitalism and free trade after ww2 and in similar fashion as otl China.

If Japanese Empire survived into the Cold War like that other timeline in here describes Americans will side with them faster or make a power move for them right away them it did with communist China in otl. The Japanese Empire would be heavily anti-Communist and hate the Soviets. Also them winning in China and having a co prosperity sphere that has all of Asia outside of US holding, USSR, and stops at Indian border would be big especially if the British are pushed back to Australia and New Zealand. They have a lot to manage and organized but Americans know how much wealth and resources that bloc would have.

US could flood the Japanese with money during Cold War like otl maybe even more. Maybe even agree to Marshall plan type of agreements(US money=more industries in China even if they are sweatshops). The Japanese would be seen as basically the US shield in the east while nato got the west.

A Japanese Empire with weapons, technology, skill, and training of something similar to JPD is a scary military force. The US probably also wants to help Japanese put down communism in all perceived forms. That by itself could lead to capitalism becoming more widespread in Japan. Strict anti-communism could lead to some aspects of capitalism being adopted as a counter measured. If they successful in during ww2 and interwar to this extent I believe the military would be more focused on maintaining on what it has gained and “containing” USSR/communist which sees relationships with the US heal and increase quickly especially after USSR test it’s first nukes scaring Americans.

The emperor from otl does seem more pragmatic then his military. He didn’t die until the 80s being only major axis leader not dead after the war. The emperor might mellow out Japan after the war. They did “win” unlike otl. The emperor, public, and military at home will be expected to act more “civil” in post war years especially with growing media(can’t be doing raping of Nanking type shit anymore by 60s when you have cameras there filming and reporting it in detail). Japanese are prideful which at times might prove helpful at mellowing them out due to them not wanting to look like “savages” or bad to rest of world. They might not treat Chinese well but they probably mellow out compared to 30s and 40s.

The Americans might see Japan as a backwards and outdated empire/culture but as the only defense against the still victorious USSR after ww2. So the US like it did with other regimes start funding and trading with them heavily. They even help prop and support them politically somewhat.

To avoid accusations of supporting an imperial power or supporting it American and Japanese propaganda twist the narrative somewhat to have counter to this. Like otl, US and USSR does its otl stuff to make sure Europeans Empires still die. Japan only makes that happen faster at least in Asia(I think they will be too caught up in Coprosperity sphere especially for first few decades to actually be able to project itself anywhere else let alone outside of Asia at least militarily and politically). The Japanese and Americans can depict their regional hegemonies as being part of the NWO and not imperialist. “We are protecting Asians and Americans from the “Soviet Empire”. Could be narrative they use by mocking the USSR as hypocrites and imperialist Europeans like the Russian Empire. American propaganda did often mock Stalin and premiere of Soviet Union as the “new tsar” even if that is a really poor comparison many would still buy it. This narrative actually has the butterfly effect of helping the US push back against communism more in Americas.

Going into the 60s Japan could still have its cultural revolution but being empire would make that much more impactful to international scene. Unlike US, their cultural revolution was more focused about personal freedom, creative freedom, and economics. They aren’t really challenging political or foreign attitudes as much. Unlike the US, the student movements in Japanese culture might support more freedom at home and for Japanese themselves but much less so everyone else especially other Asians. Their liberals will be more nationalistic. They are in otl. The empire would make that more true.

For example, a liberal Japanese student might believe he should have right to write anime however he sees fit(sex and violence) and think they should have more sexual freedom like the west but they aren’t going to protest Japanese soldiers killing and persecuting Chinese especially in China. Same goes for many other non Japanese. Japanese as Empire liberal or not might become one of your more racist empires even by western standards. Japanese public as whole especially on home islands won’t say as much or even be against bombing of Muslims Chinese civilians if they think partisan or terrorist are hiding among them. They probably cut back on rape and killing babies but they still probably treat non-Japanese opposition after the war but still treat non Japanese like shit. Europeans might honestly be shown better treatment by Japanese them Non-Japanese Asians. The Japanese public might honestly criticize the government if they think they aren’t doing enough to “protect Japanese citizens and keeping other Asians in their place”. Japan going into the 60s and 70s could even more quickly closing gap between them and US. Going into the 80s they probably do pass USSR if they can maintain everything they got for most part during Cold War years.

After the Cold War in 90s Japanese could very well be passing the US if they developed similarly to otl economically and socially to an extent. A falling apart USSR only helps that. The USSR might fall even earlier in pod like this.

Japan could go into the Cold War seen as a backwards empire with a outdated culture(to the west) but leave the Cold War as one of the most advanced and rapidly growing nations in world. They are not leaving Cold War as second to US but actually passing them to the shock of many(many celebrate fall of USSR like otl but quickly realized “wait what about Japan now”) Emperor death in pod like this probably comes at a big transition point in Japanese history. Japanese who weather multiple internal issues, reformed, and develops during Cold War comes out of it as a superpower and global one. During Cold War they were regional for most part. After they start influencing China and Middle East more. It be interesting to see how US responds to that. This would actually be a power that more toe to toe with US in most things. Way more so then even USSR.

 

[Pelranius]

For this pod you can start anywhere from emperor Meiji to after. Japan can be militaristic and capitalist.

Couldn’t Japanese propaganda start depicting Americans as separate from Europeans more so then otl? The Japanese try to compare the Coprosperity sphere and “Asia for Asians” as the same as Monroe doctrine and manifest destiny? The Japanese military and emperor still go after Europeans like otl but do everything in its power to make US more friendly towards them or at least passive enough where they will trade with them even when they are killing a bunch of Chinese.

The Japanese could even publicly state how “Americas belong to US is how Japan should be in the Far East”. American government might not buy too much into it but it does change narratives and how they deal with Americans on a more individual/business level. If the US looks the other way to Japanese in interwar years they could drive Europeans out of the Far East for the most part especially if they are fighting in Europe.

Won't work. Given American racism, there's no way either the American public or policymakers buys such cheap propaganda.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Won't work. Given American racism, there's no way either the American public or policymakers buys such cheap propaganda.

It doesn’t have to be the 30s or 40s. By the 50s it would not be as bad especially with USSR/communist. No matter what your view of US racism is during Cold War and after they do try to appear as non racist especially towards allies and internationally. Communist can use that as propaganda against you, get more allies among these people, and being too racist makes “soft power” the US like to project really hard. The US also doesn’t want to appear racist internationally during Cold War because it makes them look more imperialist and fascist which they don’t want.

Part of reason for some government support of civil rights movement especially later on is it gives the Soviets less propaganda and fuel against them. People will start joining communist or Soviets if you marginalized them too much. The US knows that and isn’t stupid. If they silent a civil rights leader they rather destroy his name or their legitimacy instead of kill them like politicians and groups in south. Like US, the Soviets aren’t passed funding and throwing fuel on domestic issues.

If supporting the Japanese is in enough American politicians and wealthy people interest they will twist things many different ways. With enough support and influence they can change views.

Also if they kicked the Europeans out of much of the Far East that does earn then amount of respect. Also if the public sees them as a shield against USSR their actual attitudes of Japanese is irrelevant. The US won’t care how they run their hegemony as long as they prevent communism in area and trade with them. If Japanese is flooding Americans with trade from China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, Vietnam, and other possible puppets or allies US public could become very “accepting” of its Japanese allies across the Pacific.

They can still be racist but not actually hateful or unaccepting of the Japanese. They are just a “odd people with backwards culture but hard working and honorable people who fight against the goddess communist”. It doesn’t have to be a progressive or aggressive racism. It can be passive racism or down talking somewhat(dismissive). Americans love “exotic” and often generalizing/Americanize depictions of other cultures.

Japan home islands could become a extremely urban, vibrant, and thriving going into the 50s and 60s. All those puppets, colonies, and allies would give it everything they need and everybody but USSR would want in on that trade. The US probably does not depict Japanese killings Muslims in Western China/Indonesia or brutally putting down Chinese protesters.

Japan might be more racist then US in this pod. The reason Japanese media could still develop stuff like anime is many of it would be liberal but still nationalistic in elements. They would not have to censor media in Japan because they would often side with them. Even normal Japanese people do often think their nation knows best especially without losing ww2 would make that worse. Actually watch anime now. The amount of passive racism is high. You really do see Japanese ego of themselves in anime.

The US media are depicting growing and modernizing japan core lands and urban areas across the empire. They don’t have to focus on more “unpleasant” stuff. They might not see the Japanese as equals at first but they don’t have to for friendly relationships or alliance and that could change down the line. If the Japanese are Empire and developing a society as advanced as otl especially technology wise they won’t really be able to call them backwards or behind at all.

If they are going into the 90s like otl with empire the US would not go into the decades as sole superpower but honestly second to wild card Japanese. Them and US being only two superpowers.

Americans often don’t like or care for Europeans either. White people here especially in the south don’t really care or associate themselves with Europeans either. Their a reason they call themselves “Americans” or white instead of European. Europe could honestly burn in some of their opinions. They care about themselves and America. Not Asia, Africa, or even Europe without given a reason to or if it involves money.

MacArthur himself said he the future was in east(Far East) instead of west(Europe). That doesn’t sound like a racist view. MacArthur wanted to fight Japanese before the Germans and old school in many ways but I think history has shown Americans are most quick to change there views especially when compared to Europe. Many people are more ignorant then racist. If shown something that disproves that they either make “exception” or change views slowly or slightly. MacArthur had great respect for Japanese and even thought they did something stuff better then west and some worse too. He also does hint at differences between Americans and Europeans indirectly when writing about this.

 

[Pelranius]

It doesn’t have to be the 30s or 40s. By the 50s it would not be as bad especially with USSR/communist. No matter what your view of US racism is during Cold War and after they do try to appear as non racist especially towards allies and internationally. Communist can use that as propaganda against you, get more allies among these people, and being too racist makes “soft power” the US like to project really hard. The US also doesn’t want to appear racist internationally during Cold War because it makes them look more imperialist and fascist which they don’t want.

Has to be far earlier than the 1950s, otherwise the US would have already come down on Japan like 15 kilotons of bricks already.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Has to be far earlier than the 1950s, otherwise the US would have already come down on Japan like 15 kilotons of bricks already.

I think the point about quickly changing views of Americans and racism being more passive or ignorant could take place earlier too.

Americans are actually very workable especially when compared to European powers. You can throw money/free trade at America and not threatened their holdings and they will leave you alone. FDR wanted more of a war with Germany not Japan. The Americans actually were surprised that Japanese started it instead of Germans. At least the public and common soldiers did. FDR can’t push any war without good reason without causing a lot of domestic issues and unpopularity.

Racism actually can help them. The Americans might think the Germans are more of a threat because they are European. If someone thinks your backwards they could very well underestimate you.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

There's also the issue of land reform.

MacArthur redistributed lands from landholders to small peasants and broke up some of the Zaibatsu IIRC. You won't see that if the US doesn't take over.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

There's also the issue of land reform.

MacArthur redistributed lands from landholders to small peasants and broke up some of the Zaibatsu IIRC. You won't see that if the US doesn't take over.

Couldn’t a corporate but meritocratic system form? Family and blood ties will remain important but could become more. So would those old classes. People forget this but Japan even now does respect people with names, ties, and legacies but unlike other society they do expect you to live more up to that name. Not pretend. You can’t just be incompetent and lazy aristocrat.

Informally people with samurai and noble ties still hold a great bit of influence either informally or formal. Some of the biggest companies now and then in Japan have samurai roots. But I could see these groups letting in lower class people who have made a name for themselves in business or military. Social mobility could still become more widespread but it probably involves getting in close and friendly with the traditional elites. Like marrying into one of there families.

Japan might be more corporate then otl but that can mix with capitalism well. Mix of state/public industries and private ones. A mixed economy with free trade. The Japanese don’t direct industries directly unless it has too or it’s more military or relating public sector. This does make the old class ties become harder to maintain or at least harder to prevent social mobility which they might not do as much as time moves on. Japan can be pragmatic.

Japan isn’t like most nations that westernized late. They have a very educated, skilled, and urban society even before industrialization. More so then much of West even. What do you think natural urbanization is going to do to Japan?

If Japan is successful especially as large empire those it’s home islands are still going to experience massive urbanization especially as they industrialized more. Urban cultures and society would likely lead to more advancements and western type levels of development or even little passed them. That Japanese population will be booming. Even in colonies, puppets, and some allies you are most likely to see Japanese form urban pockets of population groups scattered across the Coprosperity sphere. Chinese and other Asians would do most rural or agriculture type work outside of Japan itself.

Japan honestly might grow less domestically in favor of maximizing urbanization and other industries more if they can exploit other parts of Asia for cheap food and labor.

This is a side note and question but if the win in China is opium still likely a huge issue in China? I see Japan copying Britain on that. They are strict as hell about preventing its trade in home islands and among Japanese themselves but triads especially in China itself often don’t get in trouble for selling opium to Chinese or other Asians even those it is technically illegal under Coprosperity sphere. The Japanese might think keeping a bunch of Chinese as opium addict is a good way to keep them passive to Japanese rule. They even might pay them to sneak into Soviet Union and sell it just to cause trouble. Opium could be grown in hidden rural areas of western China then snuck across that big ass and often rural border areas between USSR and China. Don’t forget the communist regimes did restrict immigration/emigration a lot and are usually strictest on drugs.

If the Soviets invade Afghanistan similar to otl, Japanese could start projecting themselves more in that region. By 80s they could maybe start projecting outside of its sphere and more internationally due to growing economy. Can you build a tunnel between that Chinese and Afghanistan border or is it too much? They could sneak guns over and triads would likely set up opium connections with local drug lords and tribes. Similar to the US tactics in Latin America. Help any anti-communist with maybe exception of Islamist who probably hate Japanese Empire as much as USSR and more then US. Muslim Chinese were heavily targeted by Japanese during its time in China. They would often support Buddhist especially more nationalistic leaning ones against them. They would be either under Mongolia, Tibet, or Chinese client rule and likely treated below other Chinese. But Tibet and Mongolia would be a bigger two where most live. Both are likely given really generous borders in inland China where they ironically might become minority governments(Chinese people will be moving around a lot more. No unified China does mean a truly massive immigration and emigration within the sphere. They would only be able to prevent Chinese from flooding home islands. Not everything on mainland especially when many are starving, poor, and displaced).

The Japanese could have also taken Indonesia which will be considered an important colony due to oil there. I don’t believe the Japanese will treat Muslims there well in long run. Japanese will not tolerate many Islamic laws or customs there. They will eventually try to secularized them which will piss off many people. If Muslims fight back there Japan likely starts favoring the Chinese, Hindu, and Buddhist people there. A lesser extent all non Muslims. They can also easily flood some islands with Chinese people or even its own on less populated ones. The Japanese who control China, Indonesia, and Malaysia can just tell its Chinese subjects new lands and opportunities if you move to Indonesia. They even have Chinese people for them to mix with there. Malaysia under Japanese might be majority Chinese. Singapore is still similar to otl while Malaysia is more rural Chinese population. The Chinese in many places at this time in region are near majority.

Japan does not have a good history with abrahamic faiths. After the war Islam very well could get treatment similar to Christians in Edo Era Japan. Japan is likely to disrespect many of their customs because they will often think they are backwards or stupid(many imperial powers are often like that at some point. This is reason policies can change). Islamist in this pod probably go after Buddhist and Hindus more then otl. I might be wrong on this but didn’t the Islamist indirectly learn about suicide bomb tactics from the Japanese from Ma Chinese?(they did socialize with Saudi. Not intentional just kind of develop and happened by chance).

Won’t the Japanese look at Islam as not that different from Christianity? Wouldn’t they both be seen and possibly depicted as “non-Eastern” faiths. Japanese propaganda might make a reach for Hindus and Buddhist to appeal to the newly independent India?

Japan also might be good friends with India after they get independence(If Japan didn’t invade them much during war and try to be nice immediately after the leave British rule they could get powerful ally if they play their cards right. The Japanese likely prop or support Dalai Lama rule in Tibet especially due to its border with USSR. They might use him as propaganda or political tool. Japanese are still going to become more and more secular but Eastern faiths do transition into more traditional practices then actual belief more so then some other faiths.

The Japanese might support a one India idea during independence. If Japan invaded India like otl or more so even if they were brutal it does depend who to. They would mostly be invading Muslim areas like Bangladesh during ww2. That might lead to some nastiness between two. If Muslims are becoming issue in co prosperity sphere after ww2 Japanese might accelerate birth of modern Islamist to 60s or 50s within its region. They will be brutal. Unlike Christians they know they have less sympathy given from west when killed. Japan will abuse that. An independent Bangladesh or Pakistan might be seen as counterproductive to Coprosperity sphere for Japan.

Britain would be for it because they want a strong India to contain both the USSR and Japanese hegemony. US somewhat agrees. Japan also wants a stable and preferable friendly state on the borders of its sphere. Japan might even provide concessions from few client states and money to encourage them to lobby with them or at least be a big neutral state that doesn’t start trouble with them. Japanese propaganda could depict India as middle ground between the Far East and the rest of the world. Additionally they won’t to avoid them being too Soviet leaning and trust a Hindu dominated nation over an Islamic one(Islamic ones likely don’t support them especially in the long run. Also Hindu and Indian faiths are less “foreign” to Japan then Islam). Maybe the Japanese even convince the US into a joint Marshall type plan with India to discourage soviet influences and to keep the nation together(will be harder then otl).

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

As for a POD, it gets harder after 1922 when the Anglo-Japanese Alliance lapsed, harder still after 1927 when Japan had an economic crisis on the heels of the Great Kanto Earthquake, even harder after 1931-1934, and I would argue impossible once the Second Sino-Japanese War starts.

You would almost certainly need a purge of the IJA in the 1930s for it to be possible. Manchukuo, if it is claimed, must also not be allowed to be run by despicable men like Kenji Doihara and Nobosuke Kishi who turned it into a hideously corrupt and violent narco-military kleptocracy.

One thing I just thought of, but would have to develop more, is a Japan that is a minor Allied participant or Allied-leaning neutral during WWII, but I think it will take a significan conflict to impart some war weariness in the population for militarism to really die.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

As for a POD, it gets harder after 1922 when the Anglo-Japanese Alliance lapsed, harder still after 1927 when Japan had an economic crisis on the heels of the Great Kanto Earthquake, even harder after 1931-1934, and I would argue impossible once the Second Sino-Japanese War starts.

You would almost certainly need a purge of the IJA in the 1930s for it to be possible. Manchukuo, if it is claimed, must also not be allowed to be run by despicable men like Kenji Doihara and Nobosuke Kishi who turned it into a hideously corrupt and violent narco-military kleptocracy.

One thing I just thought of, but would have to develop more, is a Japan that is a minor Allied participant or Allied-leaning neutral during WWII, but I think it will take a significan conflict to impart some war weariness in the population for militarism to really die.

Couldn’t they experience something similar to de Stalinization after ww2 if they avoided war with US or USSR overrunning anywhere? I doubt they are as ruthless after ww2 especially with everyone having a closer eye on them. It would be pleasant by any means but not raping of Nanking level stuff. More shooting protesters or arresting political opponents. Maybe like South Korea during 90s but on a much more massive scale. Japan might try its hardest to “clean up” its image after pulling a lot of shit during the war when no could do anything with Nazis distractingly them? They likely deny and try to hide what it did during war and 30s. We will know less then otl on that part. We won’t know all about those fuck up human testing or plans they had. Those likely get “lost” or “removed” from the records besides the words of few people who might not speak up until much later. Japanese public is one of few publics I could see living like it does now but still support imperialism and emperor. They do still have right wing protest and Japanese protest for stuff that many western publics would be more against. In this pod that could be more extreme.

Japan “warms up” or “mellows out” during late 40s and 50s which sees economic developments similar to otl start taking place. Part of looking better to world would be copying west in some ways and trying to show how they are similar or respected people. Trade and business would be big part of that too. Japan would have to be given a security seat by default if that’s still thing in pod. China divided up and they are clearly top power there. US might not like them at first but Soviets testing that nuke might make them disregard that. Japan needs to play west against communist/USSR hard but that should be easier part especially if they are calming down somewhat before Stalin drops. USSR will still look like the bigger threat to many Americans especially if Japan is struggling to maintain its new hegemony at first. The will likely pick Japanese over Soviets. If Japanese fall the US knows communist likely gain a lot of new allies.

 

[Protagoras]

If I were writing such an alternate history, I'd have Hirohito die young, as the Emperor has potentially enormous power, so put someone vigorous and clever in his place and you can easily generate very different outcomes. There is, admittedly, absolutely no evidence that Prince Chichibu was the kind of person you'd need, but as he never got the chance the evidence that he wasn't is inevitably inconclusive; someone could certainly write a timeline where when real power is thrust upon him he rises to the occasion and actually handles it well. If he were made regent in 1920 as Hirohito was (as he might not, depending on how much difference his being two years younger made to the Japanese leadership), he could start exerting influence early enough to make a dramatic difference.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Couldn’t they experience something similar to de Stalinization after ww2 if they avoided war with US or USSR overrunning anywhere? I doubt they are as ruthless after ww2 especially with everyone having a closer eye on them. It would be pleasant by any means but not raping of Nanking level stuff. More shooting protesters or arresting political opponents. Maybe like South Korea during 90s but on a much more massive scale. Japan might try its hardest to “clean up” its image after pulling a lot of shit during the war when no could do anything with Nazis distractingly them? They likely deny and try to hide what it did during war and 30s. We will know less then otl on that part. We won’t know all about those fuck up human testing or plans they had. Those likely get “lost” or “removed” from the records besides the words of few people who might not speak up until much later. Japanese public is one of few publics I could see living like it does now but still support imperialism and emperor. They do still have right wing protest and Japanese protest for stuff that many western publics would be more against. In this pod that could be more extreme.

The problem there is that you really can't have one without the other. Enough was never enough for the Japanese militarists, and assassination was considered a fair and reasonable instrument for achieving their ends. You can't have Imperial Japan taking over French and Dutch colonies and utterly butchering China, a US ally, without someone taking notice, and Japanese conduct in China would make them a pariah state without some sort of regime change. That also runs into direct contradiction with your next points...

Japan “warms up” or “mellows out” during late 40s and 50s which sees economic developments similar to otl start taking place. Part of looking better to world would be copying west in some ways and trying to show how they are similar or respected people. Trade and business would be big part of that too. Japan would have to be given a security seat by default if that’s still thing in pod. China divided up and they are clearly top power there. US might not like them at first but Soviets testing that nuke might make them disregard that. Japan needs to play west against communist/USSR hard but that should be easier part especially if they are calming down somewhat before Stalin drops. USSR will still look like the bigger threat to many Americans especially if Japan is struggling to maintain its new hegemony at first. The will likely pick Japanese over Soviets. If Japanese fall the US knows communist likely gain a lot of new allies.

If Japan gets a permanent UNSC seat, she would have to be a major Allied participant, that's 101% non-negotiable. That would require either her getting the China's seat or a 7+ seat permanent Security Council.

You could have an Allied Japan with a hawkish foreign policy that's oriented against Communism, with Manchukuo and Mengjiang as anti-communist buffer states and Korea as part of a defencive perimeter around the Bohai Sea, to deny the area to the Red Navy and protect the Nanjing-based Republic of China from sea-launched missiles. Chiang Kai-Shek may not like whatever Japanese prince becomes Prime Minister, but he'd like him better than Mao by default. There would be a heavy emphasis on trade and business, and heavy industry such as shipbuilding in this alt-Empire. The culture, while not as overtly militaristic, remains conservative- the Emperor, the Imperial Institution, and national symbols such as the Hinomaru and Rising Sun are treated with absolute reverence.

You could also have some intermarriage between the Imperial Family of Japan and the Royal Family of Korea, and create a personal union between the House of Yamato and the House of Yi...

 

[Modern Imperialism]

If I were writing such an alternate history, I'd have Hirohito die young, as the Emperor has potentially enormous power, so put someone vigorous and clever in his place and you can easily generate very different outcomes. There is, admittedly, absolutely no evidence that Prince Chichibu was the kind of person you'd need, but as he never got the chance the evidence that he wasn't is inevitably inconclusive; someone could certainly write a timeline where when real power is thrust upon him he rises to the occasion and actually handles it well. If he were made regent in 1920 as Hirohito was (as he might not, depending on how much difference his being two years younger made to the Japanese leadership), he could start exerting influence early enough to make a dramatic difference.

Isn’t the problem with many emperors from Meiji and after is just their overall health. Many seem rather sickly or inclusive. Some spent all their time in imperial palace. At most they just study a lot but often learned more about traditional Eastern academics over western education. Couldn’t you have one actually born in great health or get educated in West during his youth? Meiji or one of emperors have a healthy and mentally stable son they send over to US to be educated. They can send maids and tutors with him. Maybe some young officers and academics with him. He gets his traditional education on top of western one. They also learn more about the west. Many countries do send people to learn in west because they do learn how to deal with them more(know your enemies and possible allies). He could even expand his education by going to Germany and Britain to study a bit. Maybe hit Italy and France to learn more about western creative arts and classics.

Emperor could send off a young healthy heir to do this hoping he learns how to overcome or copy the west. Also if emperor adopted western ideas of physical education and some diet aspects that could have big impact on general physical conditioning of Japanese public especially upper class. Physical education in west especially at its start is heavily tied and inspired by Greco-Roman civilization that is foundation of western civilization like China to the Far East. The western governments wanted strong and athletic men because that met better soldiers and labor. See how a young Japanese prince in Rome studying reading about this might think “O this looks like a great idea for my people back at home to start doing”. Some of fascist governments even encouraged women athletics for same reason as Spartans did. More athletic man plus more athletic woman equals more athletic kids most of time. That doesn’t take a genius to figure out. Japanese adoption of more western diets and exercises could see them increase in size and athletics much more then otl especially with bigger empire providing more food to eat. More trade does mean more food and variety of. The Japanese Empire likely gets huge into eugenics. People forget how big of impact diet and physical education can have on society. Japanese people in otl can’t even drink milk because they never adapted to digest it like Europeans. Europeans drinking a lot of milk with their diet did lead to them growing taller and bigger.

The west historically often copy and add innovation of people they interact or trade before adapting it to themselves. This mixed with its own individual innovations have lead to its success and expansion while Far East started looking more in instead of out. Japan did this somewhat during Meiji but their mistake is often looking too much in instead of out. Even during Meiji reform you do see Japan hold onto some outdated system.

The major issue with Japanese emperors is how damn passive they are. If one actually traveled around the world and was in better physical condition(think of public, diplomatic, and media depiction or view of a meek emperor like otl compared to more physically fit but still scholarly and composed). This emperor comes back to Japan after his father dies. Maybe after Meiji or after ww1 or later? The emperor would know more about the west and just understand world as a whole better at least compared to most Japanese people. Japan is nearly 100 percent Japanese in most of homeland. They are often ignorant of foreigners due to that. Americans are often assholes but they understand how to bullshit and fake for business. Emperor needs to understand that more and knows how to play them somewhat. Emperor has a lot of technical power but in otl didn’t always actually use it. A emperor who traveled around the world and learn about the west might learn about “philosopher/enlightened” kings or other absolute rulers in western history. Russian example and tsars example of westernization(learn from positives and negatives of that. They don’t want to be another Russian Empire). They could also still learn more from Prussia/Germany too. The emperor should take most inspiration from US, Britain, and Germany for more modern examples. Mixing combination of elements from them into the Japanese system would help develop the nation more.

Americans aren’t militaristic like Kaiserreich but they might honestly learn more about modern or unconventional warfare from Americans over Germans. A train swordsman would actually be helpful in close combat especially in building especially if guns are made where they can use it as bayonets too. American military was more unconventional and innovative in some ways compared to Europe especially in structure. They just did not care or invest as much into it especially before world wars.

An interesting idea I think is US and Japan coming to different “gentlemen” agreement too. Instead of stopping Japanese immigration in Americas especially US they are able to get Japanese as recognized as different then Chinese and other Asians by US law. They still aren’t treated as white but on paper they are for most part. Japanese Americans could be a way to introduce Japan to new ideas and American influences. A wealthy Japanese American industrialist comes to Japan to do business?

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Showa did travel the world as Prince Regent, and enjoyed it tremendously. IIRC, he walked with a limp but he was a good rider. Prince Chichibu was an athlete, and was particularly fond of rugby.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Showa did travel the world as Prince Regent, and enjoyed it tremendously. IIRC, he walked with a limp but he was a good rider. Prince Chichibu was an athlete, and was particularly fond of rugby.

Chichibu might make better emperor given his record, skills, and knowledge. He also fits some of my descriptions better. How assertive was he? Would he be more involved in politics?

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Chichibu might make better emperor given his record, skills, and knowledge. He also fits some of my descriptions better. How assertive was he? Would he be more involved in politics?

I'm not sure that he would be the best choice- although he was a major Anglophile, he became radicalized politically by the mid-1930s and supported an alliance with Nazi Germany, even when Hirohito questioned the value of said alliance.

Nobuhitio, Prince Takamatsu, was a pacifist (he argued so strongly against the war in China, he was barely on speaking terms with Hirohito by 1942), was the youngest brother, Takahito, Prince Mikasa.

 

[Pelranius]

I think the point about quickly changing views of Americans and racism being more passive or ignorant could take place earlier too.

Americans are actually very workable especially when compared to European powers. You can throw money/free trade at America and not threatened their holdings and they will leave you alone. FDR wanted more of a war with Germany not Japan. The Americans actually were surprised that Japanese started it instead of Germans. At least the public and common soldiers did. FDR can’t push any war without good reason without causing a lot of domestic issues and unpopularity.

Racism actually can help them. The Americans might think the Germans are more of a threat because they are European. If someone thinks your backwards they could very well underestimate you.

Japanese Imperialism is automatically a threat to the Philippines.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

I'm not sure that he would be the best choice- although he was a major Anglophile, he became radicalized politically by the mid-1930s and supported an alliance with Nazi Germany, even when Hirohito questioned the value of said alliance.

Nobuhitio, Prince Takamatsu, was a pacifist (he argued so strongly against the war in China, he was barely on speaking terms with Hirohito by 1942), was the youngest brother, Takahito, Prince Mikasa.

Radicalization can be butterflied way somewhat with right pod? Wouldn’t him being emperor actually lead to emperor having a more cordial or personal relationship with military due to him actually being more involved and part of it. He was a general. He likely knows how to talk to them better, the military would see him as more of one of them, and I doubt he would let the military go rogue as much especially navy. He might be one of them but that might lead to him having more influence or grip on military. He probably doesn’t let admiral get away with bombing Pearl Harbor. He would know them more inside and out. Also has reverence of being a emperor. Also if navy and army are still rivaling each other he likely picks a side he favors more which is probably the army. Only issue with this those this might lead to Japanese attacking USSR with the Nazis especially if they still radicalized. But if he becomes emperor in 20s he could retain his more 20s view instead of one he went with in 30s in otl.

You could have him focus more on anti-communism then going after the USSR directly or they fail like otl and army focuses all on China. They can take Nazi occupied European colonies especially from minor powers like Dutch if they play role of “liberators”. Americans don’t support colonies or empires. The issue with Americans and Japanese is more over China and how big of a possible market that is and they somewhat understand potential of economic growth there(for themselves at least). Japanese invasion does screw that up but if Japanese bend over somewhat on trade with US they might only pay lip service to them outside of embargo. Japan does have to kiss ass a bit with US on trade deals.

FDR was looking for an excuse for war with Germany so a different president or no formal Nazi Alliance helps Japan but this emperor might still side with them maybe even more so but he might take a Franco stance towards axis given the right pod. Many people hated FDR in US especially before the war. He had a lot of enemies who did not like how he conducted stuff in US. FDR was popularity was often more populist in support. Many Americans did not desire conflict with Nazis or Japanese. Some even still hated the Brits more like Kennedy dad(he was Irish). Notice how “progressive” elements of democrats are often the ones getting US into European wars to some extent. Wilson in ww1 and FDR in ww2. His distant relative and progressive model Teddy desired to join ww1 right away too against Germany.

Republican President in all honesty likely would sell to both sides in ww1 and ww2. People over stress Americans will to act in rest of world. If you live in LA, New York, or south during 30s you don’t give two shits about China or Japanese in most likelihood or know little about them. People are well aware of Germans and Americans do consider Europeans more of a threat by default(an enemy you perceived as equal will be seen as more dangerous then one you do not). Americans won’t do more then embargo them without direct attack on them. The US had to be directly and openly threatened or attack to join either world war. If Teddy join ww1 right away he might have very well got his head blown off by a pissed off American who see him as a warmonger and imperialist like Europeans which he did often come off as especially in Latin America who does not remember him as fondly as Americans(him and his stick). FDR probably might get same if he joined ww2 without a direct attack. If US joins ww1 without telegram and sinking especially right at start president might get removed from office or assassinated. Maybe both. Lesser extent ww2 is the same. No Pearl Harbor no justifying reason to public to attack them. They just have to avoid American holdings in Far East as much as possible. Leave Americans alone focus on everyone else and preferably try to bribe Americans somewhat to get them to quite down. I have no reason to believe a Japanese Empire that bend over somewhat American businesses or throw its empire resources at them is all it takes to get American passive somewhat and maybe FDR votes out of office if he pushes issue(many businesses don’t like him as it is. You probably don’t have a Bushes try to coup him but blackmail, smear campaigns, and just dirty politics would be a go to).

If FDR dragged Americans into fighting Japanese just over China and without Pearl Harbor many average Americans simply would say “FUCK THIS GUY! Why the hell do I give a shit about Chinese or Japanese. They can kill each other all they want. This isn’t our problem as long as they don’t mess with us I don’t care what they do”. That would be general attitude. Americans aren’t Europeans. You can’t just declare a war in US causally unless people are pissed off as something or another nation.

The Japanese can just wait until nationalist China is in weak position and “help” them establish “order” back to China especially if the communist are winning or making gains on him. After failed invasion of USSR like otl the army focuses on wiping out communism in China. That’s actually a better excuse to Americans then otl one and they do have support of nationalist even if support is more pressured then voluntary at this point and probably involves a shit load of concessions after(after war. The post war years will allow them to make massive gains if USSR is like otl one and treaties still have not been fully finalized).

The US trades wants trade with China and Far East. If Japanese are spoon feeding them it and act more “civil” or subtle about its expansion it can get away with a lot with Americans. If China is a clusterfuck and breaks apart into various fighting warlords again and communist are making gains Japan could make a case to Americans but probably have to give them super beneficial trade concessions and deals so they stay quite and nice with them. Japan can still say screw everyone else if they do that. The only other nation they really have to worry about is USSR.

 

[History Learner]

I still standby Manchurian Oil being the easiest pod for a Japanese miracle.

 

[Deleted member 82792]

What would life be like for minorities in Japan?

 

[Pelranius]

I still standby Manchurian Oil being the easiest pod for a Japanese miracle.

You'll have to stop the IJA from going on some half arsed mechanization drive and then starting a war with the USSR (the militarists had a bizarre, even by 1930s standard, fixation on the Communist threat).