AHC: Japan with a similar proportion of Christians as Korea

I observe the Japanese use double standards. If person is Shinto, he/she is "cute and fun", and if person is Christian, he/she is "lazy and stupid". But as foreigner here, i actually find attitudes of Shinto and Christian Europeans quite similar. Well, Europe is also large..let`s narrow definition of Europeans to Italians and Russians i more or less familiar with.
There are shinto believers in Russia and Italy!?

Well, one possible exclusion. Jehovah's Witnesses are treated in Japan with general hate, but also with respect to their capabilities and determination. If any Christian sect would succeed to convert Japan, i will bet on Jehovah's Witnesses.
Jenovah's Witnesses are tolerated, along with Mormons, in Korea primarily due to being able to learn English from them. But I suppose the situation is different for Japan.

All in all, what you said proves how Japan's perception of Christianity is deeper than mere social stigmatisation; the double standard shows as much. Therefore the problem may be harder for us to solve than we may expect.
 
Jenovah's Witnesses are tolerated, along with Mormons, in Korea primarily due to being able to learn English from them. But I suppose the situation is different for Japan.

In fifteen years in Korea, I think I've only met ONE native-speaker JW, and he was living here because he was married to a Korean, not because he was a missionary. Generally, JW missionaries don't travel around the world, or at least not to Korea. (Thoush some of the Korean JWs I've met do have better English than average.)

As for how tolerated they are, well, there is more-or-less complete freedom of religion over here, but I don't think JWs are that popular, due to their illegal conscientious objection. Probably hundreds of JW men are in Korean jails at any given time, for refusing military service. Not the same thing as religious persecution per se, of course, since they COULD do their stint and still be allowed(by the state) to worship as JWs. But still, obviously it doesn't do much for the social standing of the faith.

But Mormons, yeah. Lots of foreign missionaries over here, often involved in teaching English. Right outside the office where I'm typing this, there is a leaflet posted up advertising the services of some missionaries.
 
Hmm it's interesting that he was a catholic but most Christians in Korea have been protestant historically.

That's true. Also true that when Koreans use the word "Christian", they usually mean just protestants. I used to have to sign an immigration form that asked my religion, and "Catholic" was listed separately from "Christian". And it's also the case that most of the aformentioned religious activism during the colonial period was protestant.

But for purposes of posting on this site, I decided to go with the usual western understanding of "Christian" as including Catholic. Though I'm not sure how the Japanese would have regarded An Jung-geun.
 
As for how tolerated they are, well, there is more-or-less complete freedom of religion over here, but I don't think JWs are that popular, due to their illegal conscientious objection. Probably hundreds of JW men are in Korean jails at any given time, for refusing military service. Not the same thing as religious persecution per se, of course, since they COULD do their stint and still be allowed(by the state) to worship as JWs. But still, obviously it doesn't do much for the social standing of the faith.

No shit. How does it make any sense that glorifying the Battle of Jericho is okay when defending a country whose existence has always been threatened is not. They truly are a hypocritical group.
But Mormons, yeah. Lots of foreign missionaries over here, often involved in teaching English. Right outside the office where I'm typing this, there is a leaflet posted up advertising the services of some missionaries.
I suppose you live in Korea right now?
 

trurle

Banned
There are shinto believers in Russia and Italy!?
I knew a Russian Shinto girl about 10 years ago. Meet on Japanese courses while preparing to transfer to Japan. She was absolutely insane, of course. Shinto beliefs were just one of her less prominent abnormalities.:eek:
 
No shit. How does it make any sense that glorifying the Battle of Jericho is okay when defending a country whose existence has always been threatened is not. They truly are a hypocritical group.

Well, I do give them some credit for actually going to jail for their beliefs, rather than trying to fanagle dubious exemptions or foreign-citizenship like any number of chaebol brats or political scions(at least some of whom are probably the kind of people who yell the loudest about the North Korean threat). Plus, I don't think they're technically pacifists, since they would fight for Jehovah's Kingdom.

And yes, I currently reside in Korea.
 
No shit. How does it make any sense that glorifying the Battle of Jericho is okay when defending a country whose existence has always been threatened is not. They truly are a hypocritical group.

I suppose you live in Korea right now?

Sorry, I have to respond to this to call a spade a spade. It is clearly religious persecution, though justified. Being hypocrites doesn't make it any less genuine. More importantly other states like Israel manage to do it without jailing for so long or so many, and arguably under just as much if not more threat. There should be alternative national service for conscientious observers other than the military.

And if you look at the ethics of it, unless Korea is actually facing a manpower shortage threatening its existence, there's no excuse to take away someone's freedom. With more and more time and more modern weapons and automation, the whole issue should be reduced to a fine and required proof of true religious belief. Because in the end "fairness" and "hypocritical" and "duty" and all of that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is true military capability, which I am not convinced is affected by a few objections. War will not be lost if a few are not present. Of course my opinion would change if the system was setup wrong and abused or people could "pay their way out" or if there was a true danger / threat / manpower shortage, but we are not talking about that.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Buddhism is not a problem for Christianity spread in 20th century Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibutsu_kishaku

Haibutsu kishaku (廃仏毀釈?) (literally "abolish Buddhism and destroy Shākyamuni")

The haibutsu kishaku during the Meiji Restoration, the most famous instance of the phenomenon, was an event triggered by the official policy of separation of Shinto and Buddhism (or shinbutsu bunri) [1] that after 1868 caused great damage to Buddhism in Japan. The anti-Buddhist riots caused damage to all large temples of the city.[3] The violence marked permanently every region of the country. Between 1872 and 1874 18 thousand temples disappeared, and maybe as many again from 1868 to 1872.[4] Japanologist Martin Collcutt believes Japanese Buddhism was on the verge of total eradication.[4]


Christian also remarkably successful in Japan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan#Christian_Prime_Ministers

i think the problem is during Meiji era Christianity become strongly associated with pacifism and social reform ( opposition to nobles/military/big business )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-church_movement

the best POD for larger Japanese Christianity is to have several early meiji leaders (genro) convert to Christianity. Its difficult since Confucianism and State-Shinto is promoted by them (mainly for political and nationalistic reasons). But they do have massive contact with Westerner. If several of them early on determined that to stay "modern", Christianity is necessary, they could push for bigger role of Christianity in Japan.

another POD, is Japan military/nationalistic elite defeated earlier (First China-Japanese War or invasion of Korea). early defeat would destroy Japanese sense of triumph and make them re-assess future goals, and old-elite would be blamed. Christianity who associated with social reformer could explode at that time.

one of Christianity reasons to success in Korea is perceivement that old landlord elite is collaborator(during Japanese occupation) or old-fashioned (because they defeated by Japan); so Koreans attracted to something new, that oppose Japan.

Japan is different because Meiji elite survive and still strong until now, and they help maintain Shinto (especially strongly nationalistic State Shinto variant), Tokugawa elite fall also trigger massive abandonment of Buddhism. Soka Gakkai (and other "new religion" including Jehovah Witnesses) is minor religious explosion that anti-elite, but even the biggest of them is rather small, not national phenomena.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibutsu_kishaku#cite_note-Breen-4
 
Well, I do give them some credit for actually going to jail for their beliefs, rather than trying to fanagle dubious exemptions or foreign-citizenship like any number of chaebol brats or political scions(at least some of whom are probably the kind of people who yell the loudest about the North Korean threat). Plus, I don't think they're technically pacifists, since they would fight for Jehovah's Kingdom.

And yes, I currently reside in Korea.
If any of those people actively attempted to downgrade their conscription then they're being extremely myopic. Even minor governmental officials now get penalties for their directly related relatives downgraded their conscription on unfounded causes. This could've worked in 2006. Not in 2016. The press would catch the bait like feral dogs. If you've lived in Korea for an extended period you must've seen the response to anyone attempting to evade conscription.

Sorry, I have to respond to this to call a spade a spade. It is clearly religious persecution, though justified. Being hypocrites doesn't make it any less genuine. More importantly other states like Israel manage to do it without jailing for so long or so many, and arguably under just as much if not more threat. There should be alternative national service for conscientious observers other than the military.

And if you look at the ethics of it, unless Korea is actually facing a manpower shortage threatening its existence, there's no excuse to take away someone's freedom. With more and more time and more modern weapons and automation, the whole issue should be reduced to a fine and required proof of true religious belief. Because in the end "fairness" and "hypocritical" and "duty" and all of that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is true military capability, which I am not convinced is affected by a few objections. War will not be lost if a few are not present. Of course my opinion would change if the system was setup wrong and abused or people could "pay their way out" or if there was a true danger / threat / manpower shortage, but we are not talking about that.
That serves no ground for evading conscription. It's a national service that all must serve unless they are physically, mentally or financially incapable of doing so, and being in a religious cult gives none of that justification. Furthermore as I understand it they're refusing to serve any kind of conscription, which includes all alternatives - simply because it involves holding any kind of weapon(knife, gun, etc) even for a short period of time and they refuse even that.
Note, they aren't being conscripted to fight in any war to kill people at the moment. They're being conscripted to train how to handle weapons, logistics, etc. And conscription is one of the four national services any citizen should readily provide in the Republic of Korea. If any of them believe being in jail is so unfair they should've emigrated beforehand.
 
Zepplinair wrote:

If any of those people actively attempted to downgrade their conscription then they're being extremely myopic. Even minor governmental officials now get penalties for their directly related relatives downgraded their conscription on unfounded causes. This could've worked in 2006. Not in 2016. The press would catch the bait like feral dogs. If you've lived in Korea for an extended period you must've seen the response to anyone attempting to evade conscription.

Well, this is from last year.

Of course, that involves people using citizenship and residency loopholes to get out of the draft. The press obviously isn't going to have the time to keep track of every chaebol executive who has a son living overseas, much less how many days a year he spends there, and in any case, if it's a LOOPHOLE being exploited, no laws are being broken. So a lot of this stuff probably flies under the radar, even though people are outraged by the general idea of draft-dodging.

I'd imagine that there ARE fewer cases of outright criminality in draft-evasion, eg. fake medical exemptions, etc, than there would have been ten years ago. But even there, some people are slow-learners.

And of course, those are just the guys who got caught.

One thing that bugs me personally is stuff like this...

In the case of athletes in Korea, if an athlete attains any medal from the Olympics or a golden medal from the Asian Games and the Universiade, the athlete gets exempted from the duties of the military.

I mean, athletes are basically just doing their hobby, and they should get military exemption for that? When people with sincere religious objections have to go to jail? And I don't really buy the idea that they do much for the national prestige.

But my opinion is a minority one, as far as I can surmise. Most Koreans I've spoken to about the subject think that successful athletes should be exempt.

link
 
Well, this is from last year.
That's dual citizenships for ya. Not my problem.
Of course, that involves people using citizenship and residency loopholes to get out of the draft. The press obviously isn't going to have the time to keep track of every chaebol executive who has a son living overseas, much less how many days a year he spends there, and in any case, if it's a LOOPHOLE being exploited, no laws are being broken. So a lot of this stuff probably flies under the radar, even though people are outraged by the general idea of draft-dodging.
Then it's a legal problem - a problem that should be solved by strengthening our conscription system by making such situations occur less. Thus it has no relevance to the discussion over why we should make the conscription more lax.
I'd imagine that there ARE fewer cases of outright criminality in draft-evasion, eg. fake medical exemptions, etc, than there would have been ten years ago. But even there, some people are slow-learners.
I already finished my medical examinations and I can tell you they are more than harsh in attempting to get everyone conscripted. They are people who gave a third degree lung cancer patient "fully applicable for conscription".
And of course, those are just the guys who got caught.
Nobody, NOBODY argues that this is right. The fact that they got off scot-free only means we need to strengthen our conscription system, not be more lax.
I mean, athletes are basically just doing their hobby, and they should get military exemption for that? When people with sincere religious objections have to go to jail? And I don't really buy the idea that they do much for the national prestige.
Please tell us of how these religious people have brought international prestige to our Republic.
I find this quite intuitive and not really deserving of explanation. The Republic of Korea is not the United States, I have yet to hear of the Korean technology surpassing that of Japan or the US or our industry leaving these major countries in the dust. Furthermore as individuals who have lived in such an environment they should be the ones who are most aware of the situation. The JWs were more than aware of what was coming to them, and they got what they should've been expecting.
 
I imagine it could be done, they just wouldn't be the same kind of Christians as Korean Christians.

OK, that's probably a generalisation. But from what I've read, Korean Christians are 'full-on' Christian. In Japan, from what my Japanese friends have told me, most Christians seem to be a fusion: they celebrate O-Bon; they believe in the panoply of spirits that are found in Shinto teachings; and (in some cases) they still have a religious veneration for the Emperor despite being Christian.

That's not denigrating Japanese Christians' faith. I'm just making a point that in Japan, Christianity does seem to have become intertwined with Shinto while - as far as I can tell - Christianity in Korea is 'undiluted'.

An Jung-geun, Catholic name: Thomas

Doubt this guy did much for the reputation of Christians in Japan.

Considering that many Japanese (including the prosecutor at his trial) are supposed to have admired his patriotism, not entirely sure about that.
 
I imagine it could be done, they just wouldn't be the same kind of Christians as Korean Christians.

OK, that's probably a generalisation. But from what I've read, Korean Christians are 'full-on' Christian. In Japan, from what my Japanese friends have told me, most Christians seem to be a fusion: they celebrate O-Bon; they believe in the panoply of spirits that are found in Shinto teachings; and (in some cases) they still have a religious veneration for the Emperor despite being Christian.

That's not denigrating Japanese Christians' faith. I'm just making a point that in Japan, Christianity does seem to have become intertwined with Shinto while - as far as I can tell - Christianity in Korea is 'undiluted'.
Catholics are generally more, should I say, "conciliatory" - you can prostrate to your ancestors during funeral rites, etc. Protestants can't do that.
It was awkward for the first decade after my parents' marriage, just kinda hovering over everyone...
Considering that many Japanese (including the prosecutor at his trial) are supposed to have admired his patriotism, not entirely sure about that.
I've heard that too. Here's the source.
 
Catholics are generally more, should I say, "conciliatory" - you can prostrate to your ancestors during funeral rites, etc. Protestants can't do that.
It was awkward for the first decade after my parents' marriage, just kinda hovering over everyone...

I can imagine...ouch.

But yeah, you're right - the Catholic way, particularly in Japan, seems to have been 'get them baptised, any means necessary, worry about the fine points of doctrine...eh, sometime'. At least, the Jesuit way - Franciscans were more hard-line.

So for this to work...odds are we'd need to go way back and have the Dutch to be active in spreading Christianity. Which is unlikely: a) they were more interested in profit than prophets :D and b) By the time they got there, the leadership was less welcoming of Christianity...

I've heard that too. Here's the source.

Cheers! Will have to check this out.
 
That's dual citizenships for ya. Not my problem.
Then it's a legal problem - a problem that should be solved by strengthening our conscription system by making such situations occur less. Thus it has no relevance to the discussion over why we should make the conscription more lax.
I already finished my medical examinations and I can tell you they are more than harsh in attempting to get everyone conscripted. They are people who gave a third degree lung cancer patient "fully applicable for conscription".
Nobody, NOBODY argues that this is right. The fact that they got off scot-free only means we need to strengthen our conscription system, not be more lax.
Please tell us of how these religious people have brought international prestige to our Republic.
I find this quite intuitive and not really deserving of explanation. The Republic of Korea is not the United States, I have yet to hear of the Korean technology surpassing that of Japan or the US or our industry leaving these major countries in the dust. Furthermore as individuals who have lived in such an environment they should be the ones who are most aware of the situation. The JWs were more than aware of what was coming to them, and they got what they should've been expecting.

Zepplinair:

I'm not arguing that the draft should be scaled back. What I wrote originally was...

Well, I do give them some credit for actually going to jail for their beliefs, rather than trying to fanagle dubious exemptions or foreign-citizenship like any number of chaebol brats or political scions(at least some of whom are probably the kind of people who yell the loudest about the North Korean threat).

So, I'm not saying that the slackery of the elite kids means that Korea should ease up on the JWs. Simply that, when it comes to people who avoid military service, I have way more sympathy for someone who objects on sincerely held religious grounds, and goes to jail for his beliefs, than for someone who simply doesn't want to fight, and uses either citizenship loopholes or outright criminality to get himself removed from the list.

Please tell us of how these religious people have brought international prestige to our Republic.

I'm not saying that the JWs are bringing prestige to Korea. Just that, as a justification for exemption, the "prestige" allegedly brought by the athletes is close to negligible.
 
So, I'm not saying that the slackery of the elite kids means that Korea should ease up on the JWs. Simply that, when it comes to people who avoid military service, I have way more sympathy for someone who objects on sincerely held religious grounds, and goes to jail for his beliefs, than for someone who simply doesn't want to fight, and uses either citizenship loopholes or outright criminality to get himself removed from the list.
I'm glad we agree on that. What I'd emphasise however is that their self-induced victimisation is nothing to glorify. Yes it appeals to our pathos that people are willing to sacrifice to extreme ends for their morals and beliefs. But the fact is that, in the eyes of an average Korean, in context of so many people attempting to escape conscription(a significantly decreasing trend, mind), the JWs just look like slackers.
I'm not saying that the JWs are bringing prestige to Korea. Just that, as a justification for exemption, the "prestige" allegedly brought by the athletes is close to negligible.
Park Tae-hwan and Kim Yu-na are pretty top-tier in their prime, even on the world stage. Korea also exempts KAIST students from conscription, stemming from the hope that they'd be able to make new scientific breakthroughs. I don't think they're particularly negligible accomplishments, but this is obviously my opinion.
 
I'm glad we agree on that.

Yeah, just for the record, I'm not arguing for the recognition of conscientious objection. I'm actually undecided on that.

Park Tae-hwan and Kim Yu-na are pretty top-tier in their prime, even on the world stage.

Indeed, they're outstanding in their respective sports. Personally, though, I generally question what tangible benefits athletes bring to any country, since, excpet for the people who visit the place just to see them perform, they're not bringing in a lot of money to the economy. Unlike the KAIST students who might invent something that Korean companies can sell, or other scientific breakthroughs that benefit the people directly.

I think you could actually make a better case for the Korean Wave performers getting exemptions, since people actually buy their movies and music, thus bringing money into the economy. But I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge backlash if some of those boy groups started getting exemptions.
 
I think you could actually make a better case for the Korean Wave performers getting exemptions, since people actually buy their movies and music, thus bringing money into the economy. But I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge backlash if some of those boy groups started getting exemptions.

They do get a kind-of exemption, and it became a bit of a problem few years ago. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it, it was quite a big issue.
 
Yeah, I had some pretty vague recollections of that "entertainment unit" scandal. Couldn't recall who was involved or what the result was, in any case.

Arguably, keeping up troop morale is doing a little more for the national benefit than just drawing attention to Korea by placing above a certain level in world sporting events.
 
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