Or maybe, you can just us Spain as the cultural and agricultural springboard for actual industrialization to be kickstarted elsewhere... Islamized America maybe, or even Iraq. Hell, if Iraq somehow manages to avoid some quite serious problems, it could manage to jump directly to oil power, skipping most of the coal-use phase...
AHC: Islamic Industrial Revolution
- Thread starter John Fredrick Parker
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I don't know, more canals and better roads? Still, Northern Europe (or China for that matter) is way better suited than Spain for this, plain geography.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Here's a thought, and a potential monkey wrench -- what kind of effect would a Scientific (as well as Agricultural/Economic) Revolution(s) have in, say, Al-Andus have on Catholic Europe and the ERE?
In the ERE, not much I think, but I am not very knowledgeable about that. In Europe, well consequences would be enormous.
Culture-wise, if Aristotelianism is challenged in the Andalusian twelfth century, it won't make it to Europe. Forget St. Thomas and all that. However, it may work both ways, favoring more independent lines of thinking OR killing European science in the cradle. The main lines of European Scolasticism would probably be closer to Ockham's philosophy than Thomas' in the end.
By the way, Roger Bacon's plans may find a more favorable audience in a Christian Europe that lags behind the Muslims tech-wise and knows it. Some innovations may spread earlier and quicker (windmills and watermills).
Oh, and clocks I guess. Clocks are all-important for both Muslims and Christians.
Other than than, probably the most audacious Andalusian ideas will be labeled as heretical, as it actually happened with OTL's Averroism.
Of course, the politics of Iberian Peninsula are completely changed, but the Christian Kingdoms are still there, though probably different than OTL. My guess is European science and tech lags behind for a while, then recovers more quickly respect to OTL. In any case, West and Islam were heavily interrelated at the time, though in the Muslim perspective there West was barely worth noticing when some crusader appeared.
The Toledo school won't exist TTL, but the need for the translation would still be there and the clerics who did them would operate. Only, different texts are translated. Instead of commentaries of Aristotle, critiques of Aristotle. The Church might get along with that, if that stuff is not too openly Muslim. After all, the Greek philosophers were PAGANS. I doubt, however, that a "copernican" cosmology would be welcomed. The attractive of Aristotelian metaphysics for the needs of the Abrahamic religions is rather apparent, and Christianity might also find itself on the side of conservatorism, especially if the Eastern christians provide knowledge of the greek texts...
Oh, and you'd probably have an amazing development of linguistics in the West.
And, wait, the butterflies of all this on the Sahelian states would be staggering. Is there coal and iron in Mali?
How about a proto-industrial, seafaring Muslim Malian Empire in the Renaissance?
EDIT: Apparently, Africa notably lacks any significant coal reserve, though it is plenty of iron ore. This is going to be a problem for any Andalus-based Industrialization. However, any seafaring, techincally advanced and lasting Andalus is almost bound to stumble across the Americas sooner or later. Then, all bets are off.
How about a proto-industrial, seafaring Muslim Malian Empire in the Renaissance?
EDIT: Apparently, Africa notably lacks any significant coal reserve, though it is plenty of iron ore. This is going to be a problem for any Andalus-based Industrialization. However, any seafaring, techincally advanced and lasting Andalus is almost bound to stumble across the Americas sooner or later. Then, all bets are off.
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But then we have the problem of no coal or iron, at least readily accessible.
But, question. Suppose we take England in 1810, and strip out the iron and coal industry. Plenty of textile mills... although India doesn't have much in the way of milling, does it?
Andalus proper could provide agricultural surplus, but it is hard to see how can it take and keep the North without major wafrare, that in turn leads to undesirable political instability.
Those Christian Spaniard were tough nots to crack OTL. However, with a headstart in gunpowder, that may be feasible, though not exactly easy. Do you have a map showing the location of the easiest deposits to access?
To my mind, the three Islamic places most promising are: Andalus+North Africa, as I discussed here, Iraq, if it fends off nomadic invasions and controls a convenient slice of Iran (a big if, but it has advantages re transports and agriculture) and, at a later date, Bengal. Indonesia could be a possibility too, though she seems to me more far-fetched.
Industrialized Ottomans also are possible, but I'd agree with John's call to caution about them.
Uber-Mali is cool but lacks coal.
The Andalusian scenario seems to me very interesting. I have no time to work out a full TL, but I volunteer to help anyone interested in writing it as long as I can.
Thanks.
I suppose that to REALLY have Industrial Andalus, conquest of the Northern part of Iberia would be a very nice plus, though not strictly required if Morocco is under control.
Southern Iberia alone, however, seems not enough.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
If reading this in a TL, I'd root for the North to stay independent -- it'd just be really cool to see how smaller Christian kingdoms handle this Andalusian transformation.
I'd prefer this too, for plausbility reasons... but it is possible to have a situation where at the end, those places are conquered, though with considerable difficulty, further boosting the Andalusian industrial options. I would rely on Moroccan resources to start the the thing though.
This may create a situation for Andalus comparable to what Britain faced with Ireland in the long haul... well, it is really open to a lot of possibilities.
What I don't expect is a quick and lasting Andalusian conquest of Castile.
It requires some technological advances not easy to be done, but I think it's feasible.Admittedly, that is an interesting image...