AHC: Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are world's only major religions

[Nerdlinger]

umm days of rice and salt anyone?

No thanks, I'm not hungry.

Has anyone read that book? I mean, the whole thing? I gave up about a quarter of the way through. I couldn't stand all that crap about the bardo.

 

[SilverPhantom2]

1) Caliphate wins at Tours and Constantinople

Ok, been said, but ok.

2) After Europe is dominated by the Caliphate, Islam spreads through Africa--and much further than OTL. And the East African Coast is conquered by the Caliphate.

I feel like the Caliphate would be WAY too large before it got to the East African coast to not break up.

3) Caliphate breaks apart leaving many Muslim states.

Does this include Muslim states in Europe or are they essentially colonies of Middle Eastern Muslim states?

4) Mongols conquer Japan, do not expand as far west as they did in OTL, leaving much of the Muslim world spared. But they conquer, and completely ravage, India.

Here's where it gets fishy. I'm all for a Mongol conquest of Japan, but if you have rampaging Mongol hordes, they're going to largely follow the same route the Mongols did in OTL for pure geographic regions. The Mongols are a herding nomadic peoples. Their empire is essentially fueled by grassy fields for their horses. The highway from Central Asia through Russia and into the Balkans is one of the best in the world. The Mongols would follow it as naturally as a river follows a path of least resistance.

5) Powerful Shiite empire forms in Persia. Blocks the Sunnis' access to the east.

So I take it the Persian navy is powerful enough to patrol the entire Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean? I see where you're going with this but unless the Shiites control the entire coast from India to the Cape of Good Hope, your TL falls apart.

6) Islam never really takes hold in Indonesia.

So are they all just native religions, Hindu, or Buddhist? Shinto, better yet? Send some Japanese missionaries their way...

7) Muslim states discover the New World in search of a western route to the East. No such route is found, but colonization begins.

And here is where that analogy falls apart. Sunni ports on the Arabian Peninsula and the African coast could reach India EASILY. Not to mention just going north through the Caucasus onto that aforementioned highway would be easier than any backwards-logical "west to go east." No Muslim Columbus would get funding for an expedition to find a new route to China while there were two perfectly good ones (and faster).

8) Islam being so much further spread throughout Africa largely prevents large amounts of African slaves being taken by the colonizing Muslim states
9) The Muslims instead take large amounts of Hindu Indian slaves to the New World.

I have a hard time believing this. Ignoring the above problem with a Muslim discovery of the New World, lugging boatloads of slaves across two oceans and not suffering 1/2 your cargo dying of dysentery along the way or committing suicide is quite a feat. If they want slaves in the New World that badly, the Muslims would adjust their own ethics to support the enslavement of fellow Muslims.

10) Postmongol China including Japan, discovers the West Coast of the Americas. Colonization begins, Buddhism spreads to the Americas.

Much liklier. A reverse Buddhism needs to find a way to Europe because they're blocked by the Muslims/Hindus or something makes more sense. Even if that highway into Europe is so nice. Japan's a little far and more seafaring.

11) By the 1700s, much of the eastern coast of the Americas is colonized and large cities exist on the Pacific coast of North America, and the Incas are tributary to China.

Not very creative but standard.

12) By the mid-1800s, 90% of the New World is independent from the Old World powers. By the late 1800s, Hindu Indian slaves are mostly emancipated.
13) In the mid-1900s, the discriminated-against Hindu Indians are finally given equal rights in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.
14) By the second decade of the 21st century, Hindu Indians become the majority in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.

And here's where plausibility is sacrificed in the name of analogy. There's no butterfly effect or reasoning for independence, emancipation, or civil rights.

 

[Zuvarq]

Ok, been said, but ok.

Hey, I'm just trying to fulfill the challenge.

I feel like the Caliphate would be WAY too large before it got to the East African coast to not break up.

It doesn't have to have the East African coast for very long before breaking up. Just long enough to have more Muslim influence there.

Does this include Muslim states in Europe or are they essentially colonies of Middle Eastern Muslim states?

Muslim states in Europe.

(There were still large Christian, Zoroastrian, and Jewish communities in the Middle East during the Caliphates and after the fall of the Abbasids. So they don't have to be colonies; Islam could spread quickly enough.)

Here's where it gets fishy. I'm all for a Mongol conquest of Japan, but if you have rampaging Mongol hordes, they're going to largely follow the same route the Mongols did in OTL for pure geographic regions. The Mongols are a herding nomadic peoples. Their empire is essentially fueled by grassy fields for their horses. The highway from Central Asia through Russia and into the Balkans is one of the best in the world. The Mongols would follow it as naturally as a river follows a path of least resistance.

Well I suppose the Mongols can still go west. Just not too far into the Middle East; perhaps ravaging Europe more than OTL.

So I take it the Persian navy is powerful enough to patrol the entire Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean? I see where you're going with this but unless the Shiites control the entire coast from India to the Cape of Good Hope, your TL falls apart.

They control much of the Arabian coast up to Yemen, and east at least as far as Gujarat.

So are they all just native religions, Hindu, or Buddhist? Shinto, better yet? Send some Japanese missionaries their way...

Hindu obviously, to fit the challenge. The Buddhist communities that are there remain.

And here is where that analogy falls apart. Sunni ports on the Arabian Peninsula and the African coast could reach India EASILY. Not to mention just going north through the Caucasus onto that aforementioned highway would be easier than any backwards-logical "west to go east." No Muslim Columbus would get funding for an expedition to find a new route to China while there were two perfectly good ones (and faster).

But those states on the Arabian Peninsula and the African coast wouldn't be the ones colonizing the new world. The North African and European Muslim states would be the colonizers.

OTL Columbus was pretty ASB too. But it happened.

A 'west to go east; hey guys the ocean isn't as big as you thought durr-tee-durr I'll ignore all your scientific estimates' ignorance / logical fallacy can be replaced with a 'THERE MUST BE A NEW LAND TO FILL UP THAT MASSIVE OCEAN. A GOD-GRANTED ALLAH-LAND' idea.

I have a hard time believing this. Ignoring the above problem with a Muslim discovery of the New World, lugging boatloads of slaves across two oceans and not suffering 1/2 your cargo dying of dysentery along the way or committing suicide is quite a feat. If they want slaves in the New World that badly, the Muslims would adjust their own ethics to support the enslavement of fellow Muslims.

The Chinese can do it instead. This is just to spread Hindus across the globe.

The East African Muslim states might use the Hindu slaves to colonize South Africa, Madagascar, and various places along the Indian Ocean, however.

Much liklier. A reverse Buddhism needs to find a way to Europe because they're blocked by the Muslims/Hindus or something makes more sense. Even if that highway into Europe is so nice. Japan's a little far and more seafaring.

That's possible.

Not very creative but standard.

Again, just trying to fulfill the challenge.

And here's where plausibility is sacrificed in the name of analogy. There's no butterfly effect or reasoning for independence, emancipation, or civil rights.

Again, just to fulfill the challenge. And I can't see why those things wouldn't happen.

The world would probably be more advanced, too, if pre-'crap, the crusaders; kill heathens!' Muslim thought was preserved. And socially the world would be more advanced too. So independence, emancipation, and civil rights could actually come even earlier.

Answers in bold

 

[The Kiat]

I read somewhere that there was a buddhist greek population in alexander's empire. i think it would be interesting to see a buddhist europe (or at least a part of it)

In Greco-Bacteria yes. I don't know about Greece itself. The Greeks and Romans (or at least their scholars) knew about it. The Byzantines apparently knew about him, because they took the story of the Buddha (the Prince seeing an old man, sick man and a dead man) and put their own Christian spin on it. Obama (winning the Nobel Peace Prize) has nothing on the Buddha; he was canonized by the Church.

 

[charl]

No thanks, I'm not hungry.

Has anyone read that book? I mean, the whole thing? I gave up about a quarter of the way through. I couldn't stand all that crap about the bardo.

I have. It only gets sillier.

 

[wolf_brother]

1) Caliphate wins at Tours and Constantinople
2) After Europe is dominated by the Caliphate, Islam spreads through Africa--and much further than OTL. And the East African Coast is conquered by the Caliphate.
3) Caliphate breaks apart leaving many Muslim states.
4) Mongols conquer Japan, do not expand as far west as they did in OTL, leaving much of the Muslim world spared. But they conquer, and completely ravage, India.
5) Powerful Shiite empire forms in Persia. Blocks the Sunnis' access to the east.
6) Islam never really takes hold in Indonesia.
7) Muslim states discover the New World in search of a western route to the East. No such route is found, but colonization begins.
8) Islam being so much further spread throughout Africa largely prevents large amounts of African slaves being taken by the colonizing Muslim states
9) The Muslims instead take large amounts of Hindu Indian slaves to the New World.
10) Postmongol China including Japan, discovers the West Coast of the Americas. Colonization begins, Buddhism spreads to the Americas.
11) By the 1700s, much of the eastern coast of the Americas is colonized and large cities exist on the Pacific coast of North America, and the Incas are tributary to China.
12) By the mid-1800s, 90% of the New World is independent from the Old World powers. By the late 1800s, Hindu Indian slaves are mostly emancipated.
13) In the mid-1900s, the discriminated-against Hindu Indians are finally given equal rights in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.
14) By the second decade of the 21st century, Hindu Indians become the majority in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.

Ever hear of the Arab Slave Trade? 'Muslims' were taking and buying African slaves from the east African coast and trading them throughout Egypt, Arabia, Persia, India, etc for hundreds of years. At the least, for nearly 500 before the Atlantic Slave Trade kicked off. The idea that increased 'islaminization' of Africa somehow leads to less slave-trade is ASB.

 

[B_Munro]

Ever hear of the Arab Slave Trade? 'Muslims' were taking and buying African slaves from the east African coast and trading them throughout Egypt, Arabia, Persia, India, etc for hundreds of years. At the least, for nearly 500 before the Atlantic Slave Trade kicked off. The idea that increased 'islaminization' of Africa somehow leads to less slave-trade is ASB.

Generally, the Muslims were enslaving non-Muslim locals, and it was not considered legitimate to enslave believers: conquest and Islamization of the locals means less legitimate targets for enslavement. Of course OTL this got sorta fudged in places, but if Islam, Islamic culture, writing, etc. spread inland, it _will_ reduce the slave supply in the long run, if probably greatly increasing it in the shorter run.

Bruce

 

[Beedok]

Obama (winning the Nobel Peace Prize) has nothing on the Buddha; he was canonized by the Church.

That means being made a saint right?

 

[Errnge]

That means being made a saint right?[/QUOTE]

Yea. I've never heard of St. Buddha, but maybe the eastern church did or something.

So perhaps a more violent downfall of the roman empire that leads to the fall of both east and west and a diaspora of catholics as arians overrun them. The following centuries of heresy, war, and chaos that made OTL dark ages look like a slightly disgruntled family reunion leaves the door to europe wide open for muslim expansion. The few independent christian states to remain when what wouldve been the middle ages roll around would be pushed to the hills of scotland and parts of germania and the coptics in axum. pagans still live in scandinavia and russia. tocharian buddhists eventually spread the word of buddha into N.E. europe from central asia. ironically, the tocharians eventually are conquered by the muslims.
I'm not seeing a lot of ethnic shifts in europe. spain, italy and greece might have some more arab influence than today. anatolia will likely be more arab than turkish.
when the mongols invade, they dont really change much of the religious landscape other than islam spreading more into india. hinduism might reach out into S.E. asia, and maybe eventually into indonesia. the indian ocean is dominated by muslim navies, and a slave trade from africa and india brings hinduism in small degrees to africa. also i think itd be cool to see a persian colony in australia.
only from hearsay from the norse (a mix of pagans and exiled christians) do the muslim states hear about the new world. i think exiled christians might bulster the norse colonization of vinland, but only enough for it to barely cling to existence. european and n.african muslim nations would likely colonize the "americas" (i imagine theyd be called something else)
to be very very honest, i can't really see a chinese/mongol fleet colonizing the americas until they hear about them, and they might land in or around ecuador. i think the buddhist chinese/mongols would take up more of "s. america" while islam holds more of "n.america". it'd be a more east/west division though.