AHC: Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are world's only major religions

[Rex Romanum]

Yeah, I know they are already world's largest religions...but I want a world where Christianity is only exist as minor religion...
While Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism each have around 2 billion followers...from 6 - 7 billion total present-day worldwide populations...

Just for info, below is the percentations of world's major religions in OTL, from total world's populations 6,8 billion:

Christianity
1,9 billion - 2,1 billion
29% - 32%

Islam
1,3 billion - 1,57 billion
19% - 21%

Buddhism
500 million - 1,5 billion
7% - 21%

Hinduism
950 million - 1 billion
14% - 20%

Total
4,65 billion - 6,17 billion
69% - 94%

 

[Nerdlinger]

Yeah, I know they are already world's largest religions...but I want a world where Christianity is only exist as minor religion...
While Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism each have around 2 billion followers...from 6 - 7 billion total present-day worldwide populations...

Just for info, below is the percentations of world's major religions in OTL, from total world's populations 6,8 billion:

Christianity
1,9 billion - 2,1 billion
29% - 32%

Islam
1,3 billion - 1,57 billion
19% - 21%

Buddhism
500 million - 1,5 billion
7% - 21%

Hinduism
950 million - 1 billion
14% - 20%

Total
4,65 billion - 6,17 billion
69% - 94%

I'm actually working on a TL in which Christianity becomes a minor religion. Islam and Buddhism are the world's largest religion in this TL, followed by Hinduism, Teotlism, and Intiism. The POD is the premature death by plague of Pope Clement VI in 1348, which sparks off a series of Papal Wars among the Christian states of Europe over the pope's true successor. Most of Europe is weakened by the chaos, allowing the Ottomans to make significantly further gains than in OTL. Europe eventually becomes a backwater while the Chinese, Turks, Iranians, and Arabs go on to dominate the world.

 

[HunterX]

Islam comes too late to really completely eliminate Christianity as a major religion, at least without using a bunch of PODs and really wanking things. But confining Christianity to Europe, and a smaller portion of it than OTL might do the trick.

 

[Mirza Khan]

I'm actually working on a TL in which Christianity becomes a minor religion. Islam and Buddhism are the world's largest religion in this TL, followed by Hinduism, Teotlism, and Intiism. The POD is the premature death by plague of Pope Clement VI in 1348, which sparks off a series of Papal Wars among the Christian states of Europe over the pope's true successor. Most of Europe is weakened by the chaos, allowing the Ottomans to make significantly further gains than in OTL. Europe eventually becomes a backwater while the Chinese, Turks, Iranians, and Arabs go on to dominate the world.

I just don't see the POD having that effect. I mean, if the "Papal Wars" go on long enough (say, a century or more) without a resolution, then eventually the whole idea of the Papacy itself might be discredited, with monarchs gradually assuming control of the churches in their countries and Christianity eventually looking a whole lot like pre-modern Islam as church-state relations go. But really, in that era, European countries (and countries everywhere) went to war all the time, and I don't see how the "Papal Wars" could be any more destructive than the Wars of Religion, which lasted for over a century (1520's-1648) and inflicted major devestation on several countries, particularly Germany.

And the Ottomans didn't get further than IOTL mainly because they were overstretched. Granted, if Europe devolves into this sort of general chaos, they might gain SLIGHTLY more than IOTL. But logistics will be a major factor against them, and as I said above, Europe will probably just go through something like the Wars of Religion-a century of everyone fighting everyone, then some kind of general settlement, then Europe dusts itself off and begins advancing again.

Now, to answer the OP:
-717-The Second Ummayyad Seige of Constantinople ends with the Ummayyads taking the city, and subsequently expanding into the Balkans.
-732-Muslims win the Battle of Tours, and capture Paris. The Frankish kingdom breaks up into several successor states warring over the remaining territory.

There, the only two Christian powers capable of stopping the Muslims have just been beheaded. Within a few decades, Italy is going to be invaded from some combination of North Africa, the Muslim Balkans, or Muslim France, and will fall. Germany and Scandinavia are still mostly pagan at this point, and now, instead of Christian missionaries reaching them in the 800's-1000's, Muslims are going to have that honor. Christian Britain and Ireland will most likely be overrun by Muslims from the Continent at some point as well.

And by 1500, virtually everywhere in Europe is at least 80% Muslim. Jews and Christians remain as cosmopolitan minorities. And Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese traditional religion are the only major faiths in the world.

 

[El Nooblet]

Most likely POD's would be like Mirza said, a Frankish disaster at tours, and the fall of Constantinople by the Umayyads. Crete also fell to the Ummayyads sometime during 850, maybe they would of used it as a staging ground to invade Italy. A much stronger Umayyad could of also taken and held the Caucuses. Islam would spread over most of Europe, with Britian and several northern european states being the only Christians states left.

 

[Rex Romanum]

Alright...the "Muslims capture Constantinople and defeat the Franks" scenario might do the trick for Islam...but how about Buddhism and Hinduism...?
If the Muslims dominate Europe, they would likely to get to New World first before other people...and then OTL America would be dominated by Islam too...
Can Buddhism and Hinduism reach 2 billion followers in that world...?

 

[NKVD]

Alright...the "Muslims capture Constantinople and defeat the Franks" scenario might do the trick for Islam...but how about Buddhism and Hinduism...?
If the Muslims dominate Europe, they would likely to get to New World first before other people...and then OTL America would be dominated by Islam too...
Can Buddhism and Hinduism reach 2 billion followers in that world...?

Unless the Chinese colonize the New World, somehow.

Hinduism would likely stay within India.

 

[SilverPhantom2]

I just don't see the POD having that effect. I mean, if the "Papal Wars" go on long enough (say, a century or more) without a resolution, then eventually the whole idea of the Papacy itself might be discredited, with monarchs gradually assuming control of the churches in their countries and Christianity eventually looking a whole lot like pre-modern Islam as church-state relations go. But really, in that era, European countries (and countries everywhere) went to war all the time, and I don't see how the "Papal Wars" could be any more destructive than the Wars of Religion, which lasted for over a century (1520's-1648) and inflicted major devestation on several countries, particularly Germany.

And the Ottomans didn't get further than IOTL mainly because they were overstretched. Granted, if Europe devolves into this sort of general chaos, they might gain SLIGHTLY more than IOTL. But logistics will be a major factor against them, and as I said above, Europe will probably just go through something like the Wars of Religion-a century of everyone fighting everyone, then some kind of general settlement, then Europe dusts itself off and begins advancing again.

Now, to answer the OP:
-717-The Second Ummayyad Seige of Constantinople ends with the Ummayyads taking the city, and subsequently expanding into the Balkans.
-732-Muslims win the Battle of Tours, and capture Paris. The Frankish kingdom breaks up into several successor states warring over the remaining territory.

There, the only two Christian powers capable of stopping the Muslims have just been beheaded. Within a few decades, Italy is going to be invaded from some combination of North Africa, the Muslim Balkans, or Muslim France, and will fall. Germany and Scandinavia are still mostly pagan at this point, and now, instead of Christian missionaries reaching them in the 800's-1000's, Muslims are going to have that honor. Christian Britain and Ireland will most likely be overrun by Muslims from the Continent at some point as well.

And by 1500, virtually everywhere in Europe is at least 80% Muslim. Jews and Christians remain as cosmopolitan minorities. And Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese traditional religion are the only major faiths in the world.

Something tells me that the Mongols will have a fun time in Europe given their hatred for Islam. Can you say Christian saboteurs allied with Mongol horde from the Baltic to the Biscay?

OP: This sounds like a Years of Rice and Salt scenario.

 

[Hendryk]

Hinduism would likely stay within India.

Hinduism did historically spread outside of India through cultural osmosis; until Islam came around, the Indonesian archipelago was largely Hindu (Bali is a remnant of this period).

 

[Mirza Khan]

Something tells me that the Mongols will have a fun time in Europe given their hatred for Islam. Can you say Christian saboteurs allied with Mongol horde from the Baltic to the Biscay?

OP: This sounds like a Years of Rice and Salt scenario.

Thing is, the Mongols didn't express any particular hatred for Islam-sure, they were horrible to some Muslim countries-like Persia-that they conquered, but they were horrible to the Chinese as well. Heck, there's an account that Ghenghis Khan actually proposed executing 90% of the Chinese population, and was only dissauded from this when his advisors told him that live Chinese pay more taxes than dead ones. It was more a sense of cultural superiority-the Mongols thought that a horse-nomad lifestyle was superior to cities, which they saw as weak and decadent.

Assuming Ghenghis Khan or an analagous figure exists ITTL, and assuming he conquers Muslim Europe, it will probably go the same way as every other Islamic country the Mongols conquered-for the first few decades, the Mongol rulers basically have no state religion and treat everyone equally, benefiting a few influential Christians and Jews. Later on, after the Empire has broken up, the local Mongol prince(s) convert to Islam for the political benefits, namely greater acceptance by the local population.

 

[The Kiat]

I guess the shortest answer would be that Islam and Hinduism would go to war, destroy each other, and the Buddhadharma would inherit the earth.

 

[charl]

I think that to make Christianity a minor religion you would have to by necessity cause butterflies that make it so that Islam doesn't ever appear. Islam is after all based to quite a large degree on Christian teachings and customs as an evangelical state religion in the 6th-7th centuries.

 

[Nerdlinger]

I just don't see the POD having that effect. I mean, if the "Papal Wars" go on long enough (say, a century or more) without a resolution, then eventually the whole idea of the Papacy itself might be discredited, with monarchs gradually assuming control of the churches in their countries and Christianity eventually looking a whole lot like pre-modern Islam as church-state relations go. But really, in that era, European countries (and countries everywhere) went to war all the time, and I don't see how the "Papal Wars" could be any more destructive than the Wars of Religion, which lasted for over a century (1520's-1648) and inflicted major devestation on several countries, particularly Germany.

And the Ottomans didn't get further than IOTL mainly because they were overstretched. Granted, if Europe devolves into this sort of general chaos, they might gain SLIGHTLY more than IOTL. But logistics will be a major factor against them, and as I said above, Europe will probably just go through something like the Wars of Religion-a century of everyone fighting everyone, then some kind of general settlement, then Europe dusts itself off and begins advancing again.

There's more to the story. After Clement VI dies of the plague, several of the cardinals heading to Avignon (during the worst of the Black Death) to elect a new pope succumb to the plague as well. When the newly elected pope, Innocent VI, also dies of the disease shortly thereafter, the cardinals are unwilling to make the same trip again. With no official pope and the plague running rampant through Europe, Rome selects a pope of its own so that Christians have a religious leader to look up to. This controversial decision results in France and Castile choosing their own popes. When England and the HRE question the new popes by installing doctrinal councils, the tensions already present between the powers of Europe (and exacerbated by the plague and its aftermath) lead to a series of wars between various states across the continent lasting several decades (at least -- I haven't hammered out all the details yet).

Due to the increased chaos, the Ottoman invasion is slightly more successful than in OTL, allowing the Turks to capture Rome itself. Now that the religious center of Christianity (Avignon aside) in the hands of Muslim invaders, France and England, fearing further Muslim assaults, go into a prolonged fortress mode, leading to a stagnation in overall European technological advancement. Meanwhile, the Iberian War (one of the Papal Wars, between Castile and a loose Aragon-Portugal alliance) has softened up the peninsula's defenses, allowing the Marinids of northwest Africa to seize control of most of Iberia, expanding outward from recently appropriated Granada. The HRE decomposes as its numerous constituent states spark up little wars of their own over the question of papal authority and the Ottomans spread their relatively stable religion into central Europe.

With Spain and Portugal out of commission and England and France focused more on the Muslims of eastern and southern Europe than on overseas exploration, the Americas are given more time than in OTL before major imperialist European colonization. A Marinid naval expedition in the early 1500s brings Old World diseases to the Americas and initiates a brief period of technological and agricultural exchange with the Mexica and other native American peoples. The trade route is soon cut off, as the Marinids are forced to defend against an Ottoman Empire which has been invigorated with European natural resources and seeks to use its increasing naval might to seize control of the Gibraltar Strait. The Ottoman navy would become the most powerful in the world, projecting force along the Atlantic coast of Europe and keeping the British and French navies from reaching their full potential.

There's still more to the TL, with the Mexica and Inka successfully recovering from Old World diseases and adapting Old World technology for their own purposes. They would form the most powerful American empires, able to withstand the eventual incursions by Old Worlders in their territory. The Chinese remain expansive rather than cutting themselves off from the outside world, permitting China to dominate eastern Eurasia and the Pacific. The post-Timur remnants of the Timurid Empire (para-Mughals) unceasingly wage war against the Hindus of south Asia, leading to a significantly smaller Hindu population than in OTL. The Mamluks of Egypt are able to avoid defeat to the Ottomans, who are more concerned with European affairs, and go on to form an Arabian Empire which competes for centuries with the Turks for control of the Mediterranean and Middle East. Much of the Americas do eventually fall to Old World colonists (primarily the Turks, Arabians, and Chinese), but the Mexica and Inka remain strong in spite of this. Europe becomes a backwater, dominated by Turkish vassal states. The Muslims and Chinese industrialize. Technology is roughly a century behind ours. A global war breaks out in the 21st century, with a capitalist Turkey and China and a socialist Arabia on the one side and a nationalist Iranian Empire and imperialist Mexica on the other.

I know there are likely many problems with this premise, but to whomever wishes to point them out, please do so in a constructive manner. It's very much a work in progress, with said progress slowed by my general (but gradually decreasing) lack of historical knowledge.

 

[Errnge]

I read somewhere that there was a buddhist greek population in alexander's empire. i think it would be interesting to see a buddhist europe (or at least a part of it)

 

[B_Munro]

Muslims weren't big on deep ocean navigation, and in this world there won't be an alien religion blocking the way to the east, unless we assume a much more expansive Buddhism, so a Muslim discovery of America might be long delayed. As for the far East, the butterflies are going to be huge, so it's hard to guess whether or not a more long-range navigation oriented nation or two might pop up there, so I think it's kinda up in the air which gets there first.

As for the Hindus, they are the _furthest_ from the Americas, and blocked from expansion to the north or west by China and Islam: a more navally vigorous (get rid of that "Ocean travel is polluting" nonsense, for one thing) and pugnatious Indian culture might hold Islam at the Indus and keep most of Indonesia and parts of SE Asia, but once you get to Australia, there's nothing to hold their interest in getting further east. They might compete with Islam in east Africa, but it's not going to add to their numbers too much.

Bruce

 

[Zuvarq]

1) Caliphate wins at Tours and Constantinople
2) After Europe is dominated by the Caliphate, Islam spreads through Africa--and much further than OTL. And the East African Coast is conquered by the Caliphate.
3) Caliphate breaks apart leaving many Muslim states.
4) Mongols conquer Japan, do not expand as far west as they did in OTL, leaving much of the Muslim world spared. But they conquer, and completely ravage, India.
5) Powerful Shiite empire forms in Persia. Blocks the Sunnis' access to the east.
6) Islam never really takes hold in Indonesia.
7) Muslim states discover the New World in search of a western route to the East. No such route is found, but colonization begins.
8) Islam being so much further spread throughout Africa largely prevents large amounts of African slaves being taken by the colonizing Muslim states
9) The Muslims instead take large amounts of Hindu Indian slaves to the New World.
10) Postmongol China including Japan, discovers the West Coast of the Americas. Colonization begins, Buddhism spreads to the Americas.
11) By the 1700s, much of the eastern coast of the Americas is colonized and large cities exist on the Pacific coast of North America, and the Incas are tributary to China.
12) By the mid-1800s, 90% of the New World is independent from the Old World powers. By the late 1800s, Hindu Indian slaves are mostly emancipated.
13) In the mid-1900s, the discriminated-against Hindu Indians are finally given equal rights in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.
14) By the second decade of the 21st century, Hindu Indians become the majority in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.

 

[TheGingerninja41]

umm days of rice and salt anyone?

 

[HunterX]

1) Caliphate wins at Tours and Constantinople
2) After Europe is dominated by the Caliphate, Islam spreads through Africa--and much further than OTL. And the East African Coast is conquered by the Caliphate.
3) Caliphate breaks apart leaving many Muslim states.
4) Mongols conquer Japan, do not expand as far west as they did in OTL, leaving much of the Muslim world spared. But they conquer, and completely ravage, India.
5) Powerful Shiite empire forms in Persia. Blocks the Sunnis' access to the east.
6) Islam never really takes hold in Indonesia.
7) Muslim states discover the New World in search of a western route to the East. No such route is found, but colonization begins.
8) Islam being so much further spread throughout Africa largely prevents large amounts of African slaves being taken by the colonizing Muslim states
9) The Muslims instead take large amounts of Hindu Indian slaves to the New World.
10) Postmongol China including Japan, discovers the West Coast of the Americas. Colonization begins, Buddhism spreads to the Americas.
11) By the 1700s, much of the eastern coast of the Americas is colonized and large cities exist on the Pacific coast of North America, and the Incas are tributary to China.
12) By the mid-1800s, 90% of the New World is independent from the Old World powers. By the late 1800s, Hindu Indian slaves are mostly emancipated.
13) In the mid-1900s, the discriminated-against Hindu Indians are finally given equal rights in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.
14) By the second decade of the 21st century, Hindu Indians become the majority in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.

How many PODs do you have there? A dozen? It's a fairly significant stretch.

 

[Rex Romanum]

1) Caliphate wins at Tours and Constantinople
2) After Europe is dominated by the Caliphate, Islam spreads through Africa--and much further than OTL. And the East African Coast is conquered by the Caliphate.
3) Caliphate breaks apart leaving many Muslim states.
4) Mongols conquer Japan, do not expand as far west as they did in OTL, leaving much of the Muslim world spared. But they conquer, and completely ravage, India.
5) Powerful Shiite empire forms in Persia. Blocks the Sunnis' access to the east.
6) Islam never really takes hold in Indonesia.
7) Muslim states discover the New World in search of a western route to the East. No such route is found, but colonization begins.
8) Islam being so much further spread throughout Africa largely prevents large amounts of African slaves being taken by the colonizing Muslim states
9) The Muslims instead take large amounts of Hindu Indian slaves to the New World.
10) Postmongol China including Japan, discovers the West Coast of the Americas. Colonization begins, Buddhism spreads to the Americas.
11) By the 1700s, much of the eastern coast of the Americas is colonized and large cities exist on the Pacific coast of North America, and the Incas are tributary to China.
12) By the mid-1800s, 90% of the New World is independent from the Old World powers. By the late 1800s, Hindu Indian slaves are mostly emancipated.
13) In the mid-1900s, the discriminated-against Hindu Indians are finally given equal rights in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.
14) By the second decade of the 21st century, Hindu Indians become the majority in the Muslim equivalents of Brazil and the USA.

That's exactly what I want to ask...
Nice...

 

[Zuvarq]

How many PODs do you have there? A dozen? It's a fairly significant stretch.

Two. Tours and Constantinople.

Everything after that is butterflied.