AHC Ireland declares war on Nazi Germany

Challenge get Southern Ireland to declare War on the Nazis AFTER treaty ports are handed back in 1938.

It would not have been hard to persuade and rational Irish head of government that Nazis were evil.

It was clear by October 40 that Germany was not going to actually win.

And from a Nationalist point of view German bombers were killing Irish people in 1941
 
Fewer desertions from the Irish Army, as they likely send a small expeditionary force to Britain. There's be a lot of investment in western Ireland on things like airfields, port facilities etc, while the eastern side gets more poured into shipyards, minesweeping gear, etc. and the South gets radars, and fighter support.

I think the most likely attack to kick it off would be the May 31 attack, that killed 28 people, whereas most of the other attacks didn't really kill anyone (6 people dead in two separate bombings).
 
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Fewer desertions from the Irish Army, as they likely send a small expeditionary force to Britain. There's be a lot of investment in western Ireland on things like airfields, port facilities etc, while the eastern side gets more poured into shipyards, minesweeping gear, etc. and the South gets radars, and fighter support.

I think the most likely attack to kick it off would be the May 31 attack, that killed 28 people, whereas most of the other attacks didn't really kill anyone (6 people dead in two separate bombings).

Even if you had somebody else than Dev, can't see an Irish Army force deployed to the UK to serve under an English command too much bad blood. More likely they would be teamed with Dominion forces/American units working up in Ireland. There's little to no extra value that an Irish military force could bring to the Allies directly (little mechanisation, only a handful of "tanks"/artillery/AAA), instead the Allies would have to pour resources into Ireland (fighters, AAA, Radar systems, ships).

Can't see the West having any port work done either, too rural, at most Foynes/Limerick would get investment (both port and airbase works, but it's more likely Cork would get the military investment to bring the Treaty Port back into some relatively useful condition IMO.

In terms of industrialisation from 1941 onwards I can't see the point, Ireland won't add anything of significant value to production capacity, has limited energy supplies for building up factorie, limited natural resources which would require it being shipped in from elsewhere and limited infrastructure as well.

Don't think that even the bombings of OTL would be enough, a sustained bombing campaign against Belfast/Derry? Sea Lion?
 
If Dev didn't accept Churchill's offer of the north then I don't think anything would get Ireland to participate
 
If Dev didn't accept Churchill's offer of the north then I don't think anything would get Ireland to participate

I remain fairly fully convinced that Churchill was having one of his mad moments by that suggestion. There would be no way he could get it through the Parliament, not too mention NI had a VASTLY more important role, just take a look at the ships built there, why would the Cabinet risk armed revolt to bring a marginally useful Ally?
 
In terms of industrialisation from 1941 onwards I can't see the point, Ireland won't add anything of significant value to production capacity, has limited energy supplies for building up factorie, limited natural resources which would require it being shipped in from elsewhere and limited infrastructure as well.
However, some level of aircraft repair would be advantageous, as opposed to shipping stuff back to the UK every time it gets a bullet-hole.
 
No DOW but could the Treaty ports be used?

If Dev didn't accept Churchill's offer of the north then I don't think anything would get Ireland to participate
I have to agree with that, though it's doubtful Dev believed Churchill could or would deliver on ending Partition. Is the Offer confirmed by any documents or is it simply post-war recollections of certain officials?

I also agree that initially Ireland would add little of value from its own military resources. However, the Treaty Ports would be very useful in the Battle of the Atlantic, as would the use of Foynes for seaplanes and an earlier Shannon airport.

Once the threat of German invasion has passed, perhaps US forces (rather than British?) could be allowed use of these facilities, in the same way Portugal allowed the Azores to be used? I think that's the most that could be expected and I'm not sure how a POD could be devised that could arrange it. Maybe a U.S. Guarantee for Ireland pre-PH, that could develop into a Bases Arrangement once the U.S. enters the War? Though I'm sure that would require some internal US political changes from OTL, with perhaps the Irish-American caucus demanding Roosevelt protect Ireland as the price for key bills.

Is that remotely plausible?

As I read it, Irish neutrality was to some extent biased towards the Allies, despite the rumours (unfounded I think) of U-boats refuelling in Irish bays and retaining diplomatic formalities with Nazi Germany. AFAIK Allied airmen or sailors that landed in Eire were discreetly passed over the border rather than being interned. Perhaps there's scope for other co-operation, again more with the US than directly with Britain.

To get Eire to join the War would be very difficult and IMHO need a POD much earlier than 1938. Doing away with the Civil War could be needed and also having the North less anti-Catholic. I've read a Conspiracy Theory that Churchill pressed Collins to bombard the Four Courts in order to provoke the Civil War thus reducing the IRA's ability to protect Catholics in the North and dispute the Border being drawn up. According to this, the deaths of Collins and some other leading Republicans (both sides) were also arranged by the British in order to bring Dev to power, as his autarchic Catholic Eire would not be a Revolutionary example to other Colonies.

Now I don't believe this but it would be sort of fitting if such a Churchillian Plot also resulted in Eire refusing to help Britain in a War!
 
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Post-War, Ireland is a good place to base international flights from. From Limerick to St. Johns is ~3,150 km, compared to ~3,400 km to Glasgow and ~3,500 km to Liverpool, so in effect you could trim ~250 km off the main distance if you go from Limerick compared to pretty much anywhere in the UK outside of NI, and even from there, Londonderry is about ~3,200 km away.
 
Post-War, Ireland is a good place to base international flights from. From Limerick to St. Johns is ~3,150 km, compared to ~3,400 km to Glasgow and ~3,500 km to Liverpool, so in effect you could trim ~250 km off the main distance if you go from Limerick compared to pretty much anywhere in the UK outside of NI, and even from there, Londonderry is about ~3,200 km away.

Is it? Does that relatively minor difference mean enough to have to build up spare capcity to transfer from Shannon to the UK with all the extra costs and paperwork/clearances that would be needed? Even today IAG's suggestion of using Dublin as a portal to the UK to offset Heathrow's congestion seems iffy at best to me (and more likely a stunt to aid in buying Aer Lingus (still love how Ryan Air taking it over damages competitiviness for IRish routes but IAG gets the greenlight:rolleyes:)
 
I have to agree with that, though it's doubtful Dev believed Churchill could or would deliver on ending Partition. Is the Offer confirmed by any documents or is it simply post-war recollections of certain officials?

I also agree that initially Ireland would add little of value from its own military resources. However, the Treaty Ports would be very useful in the Battle of the Atlantic, as would the use of Foynes for seaplanes and an earlier Shannon airport.

Once the threat of German invasion has passed, perhaps US forces (rather than British?) could be allowed use of these facilities, in the same way Portugal allowed the Azores to be used? I think that's the most that could be expected and I'm not sure how a POD could be devised that could arrange it. Maybe a U.S. Guarantee for Ireland pre-PH, that could develop into a Bases Arrangement once the U.S. enters the War? Though I'm sure that would require some internal US political changes from OTL, with perhaps the Irish-American caucus demanding Roosevelt protect Ireland as the price for key bills.

Is that remotely plausible?

As I read it, Irish neutrality was to some extent biased towards the Allies, despite the rumours (unfounded I think) of U-boats refuelling in Irish bays and retaining diplomatic formalities with Nazi Germany. AFAIK Allied airmen or sailors that landed in Eire were discreetly passed over the border rather than being interned. Perhaps there's scope for other co-operation, again more with the US than directly with Britain.

The Ports would need substantial investment at a time when the UK's resources are stretched. They had been completely run down since WW1, one of the reasons why the RN was ok with the transfer, the existing defences were pre WW1 with no investments/upgrades to deal with WW2 situations (ie no air defence). The UK would have to fund significant AAA resources (you are talking only a handful of heavy guns at the most in all of the Free State), Radar sets etc, failure to do so and a German bombing raid over flying Cobh for a few minutes means Cork getting bombed and I can just imagine the domestic fallout (ie Brits using our harbour and we're getting the crap bombed out of us), one top of that the Basin may not be still intact (don't know when it was permantly damaged) reducing any repair capability to the one graving dock in Cobh.

There was plenty of cooperation between Ireland and the Allies throughout WW2 and this was known to the powers that be if not the general public, ie theDonegal corridor, reporting of U Boat sightings, the transfer of personnel, weather reporting (from memory it was an Irish weather station that helped provide the info for D-Day's forecast), there was also plans drawn up for both an invasion of IReland by Germany and for Sea Lion, both had Ireland joining the Allies, so it was never strictly neutral. In terms of the US, given OTL relations again something would have to have changed in the leadership to create a different outcome I would think.
 
Would investment be worthwhile?

The Ports would need substantial investment at a time when the UK's resources are stretched. They had been completely run down since WW1, one of the reasons why the RN was ok with the transfer, the existing defences were pre WW1 with no investments/upgrades to deal with WW2 situations (ie no air defence). The UK would have to fund significant AAA resources (you are talking only a handful of heavy guns at the most in all of the Free State), Radar sets etc, failure to do so and a German bombing raid over flying Cobh for a few minutes means Cork getting bombed and I can just imagine the domestic fallout (ie Brits using our harbour and we're getting the crap bombed out of us), one top of that the Basin may not be still intact (don't know when it was permantly damaged) reducing any repair capability to the one graving dock in Cobh.

There was plenty of cooperation between Ireland and the Allies throughout WW2 and this was known to the powers that be if not the general public, ie theDonegal corridor, reporting of U Boat sightings, the transfer of personnel, weather reporting (from memory it was an Irish weather station that helped provide the info for D-Day's forecast), there was also plans drawn up for both an invasion of IReland by Germany and for Sea Lion, both had Ireland joining the Allies, so it was never strictly neutral. In terms of the US, given OTL relations again something would have to have changed in the leadership to create a different outcome I would think.
Thanks for thoughtful response. I wasn't aware the Ports were so run down and agree with the political fallout from German bombing. Would it be different were the U.S. instead of Britain using them?

Even so, how great an advantage would it have been in early 1942 to have Sunderlands based at Foynes, cutting a chunk of the Air Gap on the convoy routes? Or for destroyers to be able to refuel in Bantry Bay or Cobh? Given the material and skilled Labour available, I suspect the U.S. could have upgraded the facilities and provided defences within months. Just as it did in Iceland or Northern Ireland. It may be a matter of making it worthwhile to do so. Would it it have made enough difference to the Battle of the Atlantic for the political and logistic efforts?

So, how to get the U.S. interested in using the Treaty Ports and Foynes is the question. King maybe the problem initially, given his problems with convoy system in U.S. waters but perhaps he'd be educable in time!

ps like your ROI to 1912 TL, is it still live?
 
Thanks for thoughtful response. I wasn't aware the Ports were so run down and agree with the political fallout from German bombing. Would it be different were the U.S. instead of Britain using them?

Even so, how great an advantage would it have been in early 1942 to have Sunderlands based at Foynes, cutting a chunk of the Air Gap on the convoy routes? Or for destroyers to be able to refuel in Bantry Bay or Cobh? Given the material and skilled Labour available, I suspect the U.S. could have upgraded the facilities and provided defences within months. Just as it did in Iceland or Northern Ireland. It may be a matter of making it worthwhile to do so. Would it it have made enough difference to the Battle of the Atlantic for the political and logistic efforts?

So, how to get the U.S. interested in using the Treaty Ports and Foynes is the question. King maybe the problem initially, given his problems with convoy system in U.S. waters but perhaps he'd be educable in time!

ps like your ROI to 1912 TL, is it still live?

In terms of usage, probably, that's why I suggested that any Irish force (which I really couldn't see raised for years given the massive gaps in the TOE and equipment lists for the Defence Forces) may serve with Commonwealth/US forces rather than British forces. US naval forces did base out of Cobh during WW1 (the slip for their WW1 flying planes are still there today), so it might be easier, but efforts would still have to be made I would think to at least attempt to defend the area from German bombings.

In terms of Foynes I could see that being of use fairly easily given it's pre War usage, but again between 1938 and 42 doesn't leave much (for example if Dev wasn't there would the Economic War and the Treaty Ports have come up in the same manner?), maybe had the mid 20's naval talks actually produced something (a meeting between the UK offering a dozen minesweepers and the CnaG government looking at matching NZ's navy) then maybe a different policy might have occured instead of the farce we had of a couple of MTB's that could barely get out of harbour. But that 4 years presuming nothing else was changed, it's hard to see how Dev and Churchill come to any agreement between themselves.

In terms of my TL, it's suspended due to lack of a laptop, mine blew up completely back before Christmas and I just haven't got the funds together to get a new system I like yet. Typing just this kind of an answer is a bit of a pain on an ipad, typing more to that might do my head in. But it shall return I promise.
 
Thanks for thoughtful response. I wasn't aware the Ports were so run down and agree with the political fallout from German bombing. Would it be different were the U.S. instead of Britain using them?

Even so, how great an advantage would it have been in early 1942 to have Sunderlands based at Foynes, cutting a chunk of the Air Gap on the convoy routes? Or for destroyers to be able to refuel in Bantry Bay or Cobh? Given the material and skilled Labour available, I suspect the U.S. could have upgraded the facilities and provided defences within months. Just as it did in Iceland or Northern Ireland. It may be a matter of making it worthwhile to do so. Would it it have made enough difference to the Battle of the Atlantic for the political and logistic efforts?

So, how to get the U.S. interested in using the Treaty Ports and Foynes is the question. King maybe the problem initially, given his problems with convoy system in U.S. waters but perhaps he'd be educable in time!

ps like your ROI to 1912 TL, is it still live?


with regard to the Air Gap, the comparison is not with Londonderry, but with airfields and seaplane bases in Fermanagh, which were a third of distance nearer Foynes. These were begun in 1941, with American help, and thanks to the Donegal Corridor agreement, the planes flew straight over Ballyshannon and Donegal Bay.
 
Down with Dev??

In terms of usage, probably, that's why I suggested that any Irish force (which I really couldn't see raised for years given the massive gaps in the TOE and equipment lists for the Defence Forces) may serve with Commonwealth/US forces rather than British forces. US naval forces did base out of Cobh during WW1 (the slip for their WW1 flying planes are still there today), so it might be easier, but efforts would still have to be made I would think to at least attempt to defend the area from German bombings.

In terms of Foynes I could see that being of use fairly easily given it's pre War usage, but again between 1938 and 42 doesn't leave much (for example if Dev wasn't there would the Economic War and the Treaty Ports have come up in the same manner?), maybe had the mid 20's naval talks actually produced something (a meeting between the UK offering a dozen minesweepers and the CnaG government looking at matching NZ's navy) then maybe a different policy might have occured instead of the farce we had of a couple of MTB's that could barely get out of harbour. But that 4 years presuming nothing else was changed, it's hard to see how Dev and Churchill come to any agreement between themselves.

In terms of my TL, it's suspended due to lack of a laptop, mine blew up completely back before Christmas and I just haven't got the funds together to get a new system I like yet. Typing just this kind of an answer is a bit of a pain on an ipad, typing more to that might do my head in. But it shall return I promise.
Yep, I can't see Dev and Churchill doing an agreement post 1938 for British use of Treaty Ports etc. and no way Ireland will be more than a helpful non belligerent while pretending to be strictly neutral. A POD in the 1920s would be needed, lots possible o/w keeping Collins alive while getting rid of Dev would be my favourite. But then why not wish for no Partition and a smooth transition to Home Rule followed by Dominion Status etc? (Can't think of a POD for that post 1829 or maybe earlier!)

Still, ISTM that had the USA wanted to use the Ports & Foynes enough in 1942-4 it would have had the resources to both develop and defend them, while also improving the Irish armed forces too. The odds on the Germans invading Ireland after 1941 are zilch and their bombers would be unable to inflict serious damage either given the bulk of the LW is supporting the Eastern Front.

So the issue is whether the USA would want to do so and whether Dev and the wider Irish establishment/public would be prepared to accept that. It would be a breach of neutrality but not involve a DOW. It seems unlikely that both conditions could be satisfied but YNK...;)

Good luck in solving your IT problem!
 
Is it? Does that relatively minor difference mean enough to have to build up spare capcity to transfer from Shannon to the UK with all the extra costs and paperwork/clearances that would be needed? Even today IAG's suggestion of using Dublin as a portal to the UK to offset Heathrow's congestion seems iffy at best to me (and more likely a stunt to aid in buying Aer Lingus (still love how Ryan Air taking it over damages competitiviness for IRish routes but IAG gets the greenlight:rolleyes:)
Well they made rest-stops in Gander, Newfoundland of all places in the 40s and 50s, because early airliners just didn't have the range to go properly transatlantic between the big airports, so yeah, every bit helps.
 
The only way I can see Germany being able to respond it by torpedoing Irish shipping, redirecting what air forces they could to bomb Dublin and other major cities, and to send saboteurs and spies. There is not much they can do to prevent forces. Ireland can send troops to fight in Allied lines though all the way to the fall of Berlin.
 
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