AHC: Invade Britain (no, not Sealion)

Sometime before September 1939, have a foreign power successfully invade and conquer the UK.

The POD can be anytime after 11:00pm, November 11, 1918, so:
•WWI is over
•The Germans have been defeated, and they will soon have strict limits imposed on them at the negotiating table
•Russia is in the middle of a civil war, which the Allies are intervening in

So, would any countries be up to the task in the 20s or 30s?
•Where would the invasion stage from? The obvious point is mainland Europe, across the Channel or North Sea, but anyone invading from there would have to also dominate mainland Europe. Other options are Ireland or Norway, but I think the UK would intervene long before a foreign power could build up forces in Ireland, and Norway is a bit of a swim
•Would the invader have to decisively
destroy the Royal Navy, or could the RN be kept at bay without being destroyed?

The first options that come to mind are a France that has a falling out with the UK (possibly after a revolution?) Or an aggressive USSR that's hostile to the West after the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War
 
How about the United States. They had a fleet built or being built that would have been the equal of the UK. They had a plan for a war with the British Empire: Red. And they had grievances. So have a situation of say a trade dispute or greater sympathy for the Irish rebellion, escalate. US Navy smashes Royal Navy and then to finish things up, invade.
 

Redcoat

Banned
How about the United States. They had a fleet built or being built that would have been the equal of the UK. They had a plan for a war with the British Empire: Red. And they had grievances. So have a situation of say a trade dispute or greater sympathy for the Irish rebellion, escalate. US Navy smashes Royal Navy and then to finish things up, invade.
Isn't the U.S. navy inferior to the British one?
 
I distinctly remember reading once, though to this day have not been able to find somewhere that backs it up, that sections of the British military expected a future war to be against the French. Can anyone verify this? It seems a little unlikely, but if true, could provide a good starting point.
 
I distinctly remember reading once, though to this day have not been able to find somewhere that backs it up, that sections of the British military expected a future war to be against the French. Can anyone verify this? It seems a little unlikely, but if true, could provide a good starting point.
Britains early rearmament programmes were based on parity with France in terms of air power prior to the rise of the Luftwaffe purely because the French were the only ones that could feasibly attack.
 

Kaze

Banned
Norway and Denmark could work - remember the Vikings, Dane, and the Anglo-Saxons successfully invaded the British Isles across the North Sea. If anything a spread of Communism from Russia into Norway could lead into this senerio.
 
Lets have a go.

After a decade of Post war austerity and brutal crack downs on the strengthening Socialist Movements (trade unionists etc) by the Centre and right an extreme left wing Government takes office in the mid 20s and goes all Soviet, takes draconian revenge upon those it perceived as leading those Brital crackdowns, attempts to nationalise everything, declares the UK as the United British Republic fracturing British society resulting in a right wing led coup that in turn leads to a horrific civil war with increasingly worse atrocities committed by the 'Royalist/Tory' and 'Communists' against each other (and the poor bastards stuck in the middle).

Other Commonwealth Nations, France and possibly the USA after sitting on the sidelines and getting the fallout of lost trade and hordes of brutalised war refugees creating burdens upon those nations - invade in order to restore order

The Majority of the Royal Navy including most of the Capital ships had fled to Canada or other 'safe' ports after both those Officers and Men not leaning to either the Left or Right decided to remove the potential for the Warships of the Navy to inflict death and destruction upon those they were supposed to protect.

Thus when a coalition invades it does so with a large majority of the Royal Navy in direct support (thus I remove the RN as a shield)
 
Yes, but if it comes to war, the US Navy can outbuild the Royal Navy, especially if the UK is also at war with Germany/France.

Even if the USN smashes up the RN batlefleet they still have to get an invasion force across the Atlantic and then sucessfully invade. The RN minus all its battlewagons still has tons of Cruisers, Destroyers and Subs left. I am not sure even today the USN which is bigger than the next 3 or 4 navies could do an invasion across 3,000 miles of water without a major country in Europe to act as a base and ally.
 
I distinctly remember reading once, though to this day have not been able to find somewhere that backs it up, that sections of the British military expected a future war to be against the French. Can anyone verify this? It seems a little unlikely, but if true, could provide a good starting point.
France was used as a measuring stick for the military in the 20s and 30s simply because they were the nearest great power that could if they wanted to form a threat.

Germany was under Versailles limitations so there was no point planning a war based on them.
 
I distinctly remember reading once, though to this day have not been able to find somewhere that backs it up, that sections of the British military expected a future war to be against the French. Can anyone verify this? It seems a little unlikely, but if true, could provide a good starting point.
I recall the same thing. As far as I can remember the comment I saw was in a discussion on the defences in England (I'll try and find the source book), specifically those around the south east of the country. The view was that the airfields in the UK were constructed with the idea that we would be fighting the next war against France, and that Germany would be either neutral or our ally. Many of the airfields constructed would have been new builds as air power was in its infancy, with WWI having only just finished and the RAF being a new entity. Of course as it turned out French airfields were a major threat, just with different operators!
It should also be remembered that at the time the French Navy was 4th, behind only Britain, Japan and America, and had some very modern battleships.
 
Not the quote I was actually trying to find (I clearly have too many books - oh who am I kidding!), but this from Front Line Kent, by Victor Smith, by Kent County Council

"After WWI the absence of an identifiable enemy initially produced uncertainty about priorities for home defence. After a period of disarmament, the need to achieve a balance of power with France evolved as a strategic requirement."

Within 'a few years' of 1920 "The only power then able to mount an attack was France".
"By the mid-1930's however defensive preparations were focusing on Germany".

Fear of French invasion of course wasn't new, and hadn't been completely vanquished along with Napoleon. From the same book "Fear of French invasion in the 1880's led to the contingency plan for large scale land defences of London". Some works were started then, and repurposed for 1939-45.

being so close to each other, and having plenty of historical conflicts to avenge, it would certainly be possibly to have seen France as the real enemy, especially with Germany being hit so hard after WWI. It could even be possible, at a stretch, to see a French-Spanish link up.

Not specifying an enemy, but clearly stating the situation, from Kent and Sussex 1940, Stuart Hylton, Pen & Sword Books

In 1938, on the RAF "Of the twenty nine squadrons considered ready for mobilisation, only five were equipped with modern aircraft. Five of the squadrons were equipped with the Gladiator, a biplane fighter that only came into service in 1937, but which was already hopelessly outpaced and outgunned by the opposition".

By the time of Operation Dynamo we would be glad to see French troops coming ashore in Blighty.
 
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the Red Dawn scenario, where NATO collapses? This was actually a 3rd Fleet game scenario published in the General way back in the day, called "Red Sealion"... the game focused entirely on the naval aspect of the war, but the scenario assumed that if the Brits lost the battle, invasion was next on the list...
 
Not the quote I was actually trying to find (I clearly have too many books - oh who am I kidding!), but this from Front Line Kent, by Victor Smith, by Kent County Council

"After WWI the absence of an identifiable enemy initially produced uncertainty about priorities for home defence. After a period of disarmament, the need to achieve a balance of power with France evolved as a strategic requirement."

Within 'a few years' of 1920 "The only power then able to mount an attack was France".
"By the mid-1930's however defensive preparations were focusing on Germany".

Fear of French invasion of course wasn't new, and hadn't been completely vanquished along with Napoleon. From the same book "Fear of French invasion in the 1880's led to the contingency plan for large scale land defences of London". Some works were started then, and repurposed for 1939-45.

being so close to each other, and having plenty of historical conflicts to avenge, it would certainly be possibly to have seen France as the real enemy, especially with Germany being hit so hard after WWI. It could even be possible, at a stretch, to see a French-Spanish link up.

Let's give this a go, then.

The French political landscape starts to move towards radical socialism during and shortly after the war. The SFIO makes huge gains in the 1919 French legislative elections, and French newspapers tout the "Second French Revolution." The new socialist-dominated government intervenes in the Russian Civil War to aid the Bolsheviks, to the consternation of the Allies. The French objectives are: 1) to guarantee Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite to the Russians by backing the fledgling USSR, and 2) to ensure a French-aligned power exists in the East to threaten Germany.

However, French and Allied forces clash in Russia, and only the war-weariness of both sides keeps the conflict from escalating. Russia becomes a proxy war with occasional clashes between French and Allied forces. France and England are in a staring contest across the Channel, and even after the Allies withdraw from Russia, both sides keep their militaries ready for mobilization. France starts to build up her fleet, especially the brown-water navy, to defend her colonies. Meanwhile, the USSR builds up her fleet in the Pacific, hoping to fight the Russo-Japanese War 2.0. England sees the buildup as a threat to the island, and the cold war escalates as both sides sponsor independence movements in the others' empires.

France continues to keep Germany in a weakened state by occupying the Rhineland when Germany falls behind on payment of war reparations, as in OTL. England starts to improve relations with Germany, hoping to break Franco-Soviet dominance of mainland Europe. France responds to the perceived betrayal by pre-emptively invading Germany with their USSR ally. England sends the BEF to Germany's aid, but Germany falls quickly, and the war is continued in the colonies and on the high seas.

The Japanese, fearing Soviet dominance of the Far East, secretly allies with England. They plan to wait until the winter, when Vladivostok is iced over, then destroy the Soviet Pacific fleet and cut the Trans-Siberian Railway. However, the USSR sent the Baltic Fleet east to the Pacific as soon as war with England broke out, predicting correctly that the Japanese would join the war as allies of England. The Japanese plans to repeat their 1904 surprise attack on the Soviet fleet are spoiled when the Soviets surprise them instead, raiding the Japanese fleet with the Baltic fleet carriers and launching a successful offensive to retake Port Arthur.

Meanwhile, the French and British fleets have fought several skirmishes, with inconclusive results. Bombers fly back and forth across the skies to strike at economic targets, with mixed results. The British are keen to fight a decisive fleet action, and constantly harry the French ports with carrier strikes. The French, however, are less confident in their navy and use most of their fleet in peripheral attacks against British colonies in Africa and the Middle East.

The "Bore War", as the stalemate is known to the English, or "Drôle de guerre" to the French, is broken when the Japanese fleet is destroyed by the Russians in an engagement that would be known as the last decisive action for the battleship, and the first for the aircraft carrier. Blockaded by Russian submarines and bombarded from the air, the Japanese refuse to surrender, but they will have no effect on the remainder of the war.

As the combined Baltic-Pacific fleets sail to Europe to aid their French allies, the Royal Navy is horrified by reports from RN observers in Japan. The RN knows it cannot allow a joint Franco-Russian fleet to exist in the Atlantic, lest England suffer the same fate as Japan. The RN steams south, planning to intercept the Russian fleet at the Cape of Good Hope. The RAF deploys every available squadron to South Africa to support the RN.

The Battle of the Cape of Good Hope, however, is a disaster for England. The RN is able to turn back the Soviet fleet, but at heavy losses. The RN pursues them into the Indian Ocean, beyond the range of RAF air support from South Africa. It is only then that the French fleet, thought to still be en route from the Atlantic, strikes from the west. The English fleet is outnumbered and outflanked on two sides. The remaining RN battleships make a last, desperate assault in both directions to buy the carriers time to escape north. After the Franco-Soviet fleet finishes off the enemy battleships at close range, they turn north to pursue the carriers. After a days-long running battle, the English carriers arrive in India, where they remain, safe but useless.

Meanwhile, both sides' militaries prepare for the Battle of Britain that will surely follow. The French brown water navy returns home, where several joint Franco-Soviet dress rehearsals are conducted. The RAF fights tooth-and-nail over southern England, but is forced to withdraw to disbursed airfields in the North, giving the Franco-Soviet Air Forces local dominance over the invasion area. After leaving sufficient firepower in the Indian Ocean to keep the surviving English carriers bottled up, the Franco-Soviet fleet returns to the Atlantic, where it launches raid after raid on the disbursed RAF forces. The reconstituted British Army digs in along the southern coast.

Finally, the long-awaited and dreaded day comes as entire corps of Soviet paratroopers descend on England, and the first waves of French Marines storm ashore. After a long, slow grind northward, the Franco-Soviet forces seize London. Organized resistance begins to crumble, and the invaders reach as far as Edinburgh before English forces capitulate. His Majesty's Government, shortly before capitulation, puts Operation London Bridge into effect. The Royal Family and key members of government are flown out of the country, while the remnants of the British Army and hundreds of thousands of civilians escape on any vessel, military or civilian, capable of sailing in the open ocean. After meeting in Iceland to refuel, the motley fleet continues to Canada, then the Panama Canal, then Australia, then finally to India, the new seat of the British Empire in Exile, from where the Free British Forces wait for the day in which the free world will join them in the liberation of their island.
 
I like the way that looks. Makes sense for the French socialists to gain power.
One question, what happened to the BEF? Did any of it manage to return to the UK or was it lost?
 
I like the way that looks. Makes sense for the French socialists to gain power.
One question, what happened to the BEF? Did any of it manage to return to the UK or was it lost?
I hadn't given it much thought. If they're evacuating from Germany then they'd be making the trek across the North Sea, which is quite a ways to move a few hundred thousand men. On the other hand, the Soviet Baltic fleet could be bottled up fairly easily, and the French fleet wouldn't want to try making a run through the Channel, so they'd have to go all the way around the GIUK gap to interfere with an evacuation, by which time it may be too late. I suppose that will be decided in large part by the manner of the ground war - will it be a reverse-blitzkreig that's decided in a few weeks, a long slog to Berlin, or somewhere in between? The slower the ground campaign unfolds, and the farther west the Franco-Soviet forces meet, the better things will go for the BEF in an ATL version of Dunkirk.

And if the BEF escapes, then our ATL counterparts would be posting WI threads about if Napoleon IV hadn't ordered the tanks to stop before cutting off the BEF at Wilhemshaven :rolleyes:

You do know that the French Socialist rejected the third internationnal (and thus the USSR) ?

I'll be the first to admit I know little about French politics. I chose the SFIO because I saw 'socialist' in the name. Any chance the SFIO, or another party, would be more sympathetic to the Soviets?

Your TL looks excellent by the way. Hopefully I'll learn something from it, even if it is fictional :)
 
I'll be the first to admit I know little about French politics. I chose the SFIO because I saw 'socialist' in the name. Any chance the SFIO, or another party, would be more sympathetic to the Soviets?

Well not really, the PCF was a non entity due to his extreme radicalism when the SFIO was more moderate and thus more appealing to the people . And you know it isn't because it has the Socialist in it than it's support the USSR :p
 
Well not really, the PCF was a non entity due to his extreme radicalism when the SFIO was more moderate and thus more appealing to the people . And you know it isn't because it has the Socialist in it than it's support the USSR :p
Curse you French and your non-radical politics, always getting in the way of a good TL :p I was hoping to have the POD in the 1919 elections to keep it small and simple, but it sounds like it might have to be during or before WWI. Could the SFIO or another significant left-leaning party have become more radical with an earlier POD?
 
Curse you French and your non-radical politics, always getting in the way of a good TL :p I was hoping to have the POD in the 1919 elections to keep it small and simple, but it sounds like it might have to be during or before WWI. Could the SFIO or another significant left-leaning party have become more radical with an earlier POD?

Well you could have Edouard Vaillant winning his "war" with Jaurés and the rest . But Guesde was pretty much a men of the past in the french left at that time, he was already there during the Commune of Paris so he was very much a radical thus without a hope to assemble the left .

So it's kinda hard with a After 1900 . The radical having been either purged, send to Guyana or New-Caledonia or sidelined b the event of La Commune (or even their afterward support of it )
 
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