AHC: Integrate Jesus into Roman Paganism

[Orsino]

With a POD not before his crucifixion, is there a way to have the Christian God/Christ successfully integrated into the Roman Pantheon?

Obviously this will require finding a way to address, sublimate or eliminate the Christian focus on Monotheism. Can it be done? What would a polytheism-compatible version of Christ be like? And how would this affect the course of history?

 

[fanthemadman]

Have a Saul of Tarsus analogue fuse Jesus Christ with Mithras??

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Shouldn't be that difficult, I mean the Romans were, if nothing else, masters at integrating religions into their own. Just have an emperor, maybe in the third century, find an excuse for creating a temple to Jesus.

 

[aktarian]

On Roman side I'd say it's not hard. On Christian side it would be much harder because of monotheism.

Maybe if Jesus is seen as son of Jupiter?

 

[carlton_bach]

From the Roman perspective, it would not be a big deal. You don't actually have to take every aspect of the myth into account, just the ones that work for you. Jesus could easily fit into a Roman interpretation as the demi-god son of Iuppiter Sabaothis, or maybe an incarnation of Asclepius, or both. All the attendant talk of monotheism would simply cement the high opinion of his wisdom, given that philosophical monotheism was en vogue at the time.

The Christians might have a problem with it. But if history went just a bit different, and someone managed to establish a Christian community that was open to this interpretation before the big antagonism between the Roman state and the Christian church really got going, it might be enough to bury the strictlöy monotheistic variant under an avalanche of converts. At least initially.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

If it came to happen... how would that affect the rise of Islam? Or the encounters of the Romans and the "Barbarians", both East Germanic and Norse? Moreover, what will this mean once they reach the New World?

 

[Orsino]

From the Roman perspective, it would not be a big deal. You don't actually have to take every aspect of the myth into account, just the ones that work for you. Jesus could easily fit into a Roman interpretation as the demi-god son of Iuppiter Sabaothis, or maybe an incarnation of Asclepius, or both. All the attendant talk of monotheism would simply cement the high opinion of his wisdom, given that philosophical monotheism was en vogue at the time.

The Christians might have a problem with it. But if history went just a bit different, and someone managed to establish a Christian community that was open to this interpretation before the big antagonism between the Roman state and the Christian church really got going, it might be enough to bury the strictlöy monotheistic variant under an avalanche of converts. At least initially.

Interesting, this was pretty much my thinking. For Christ-worship to comfortably fit into Roman religion someone needs to spread the message "Hey, there's this new guy called Christ and he's a son of Jupiter" to potential Roman converts before Christ's monotheist and Jewish early followers get the chance to spread their version.

The problem is that for this to work you'd need a Roman Emperor to embrace Christ (albeit the son of Jupiter version) much earlier than OTL. I'm not sure how you'd get that to happen, maybe an early Christian gets the chance to try and convert the emperor within a few decades of Jesus' death and the Emperor decides that worshipping Christ sounds great but ixnay on the whole "no other gods before me" thing. The Emperor establishing some sort of Cult of Christ early on could steal monotheist Christians' thunder before they have a chance to reach critical mass.

If it came to happen... how would that affect the rise of Islam? Or the encounters of the Romans and the "Barbarians", both East Germanic and Norse? Moreover, what will this mean once they reach the New World?

Islam would almost certainly be butterflied I'm afraid, but some other great monotheistic religion might rise in place of OTL Christianity and Islam. I imagine a continuing tradition of polytheism in Europe would ultimately mean less bloodshed and easier integration of conquered peoples, regardless of whether or not the Roman empire itself survives, but that is pure speculation on my part.

 

[aktarian]

Islam would almost certainly be butterflied I'm afraid, but some other great monotheistic religion might rise in place of OTL Christianity and Islam. I imagine a continuing tradition of polytheism in Europe would ultimately mean less bloodshed and easier integration of conquered peoples, regardless of whether or not the Roman empire itself survives, but that is pure speculation on my part.

What about Zoratrianism? It's pretty much monotheism lite anyway a few tweaks here and there and some original Christians moving to Persia and it could evolve.

 

[jahenders]

That WOULD work for the Romans -- just add a guy to the pantheon. However, most Christians wouldn't accept it and would basically say that the Romans bastardized their God. So, adding Christ to Roman pantheon might mean that many Romans technical worship Christ, but they're just worshipping Mithras, Jupiter, etc with a different name.

Interesting, this was pretty much my thinking. For Christ-worship to comfortably fit into Roman religion someone needs to spread the message "Hey, there's this new guy called Christ and he's a son of Jupiter" to potential Roman converts before Christ's monotheist and Jewish early followers get the chance to spread their version.

The problem is that for this to work you'd need a Roman Emperor to embrace Christ (albeit the son of Jupiter version) much earlier than OTL. I'm not sure how you'd get that to happen, maybe an early Christian gets the chance to try and convert the emperor within a few decades of Jesus' death and the Emperor decides that worshipping Christ sounds great but ixnay on the whole "no other gods before me" thing. The Emperor establishing some sort of Cult of Christ early on could steal monotheist Christians' thunder before they have a chance to reach critical mass.


Islam would almost certainly be butterflied I'm afraid, but some other great monotheistic religion might rise in place of OTL Christianity and Islam. I imagine a continuing tradition of polytheism in Europe would ultimately mean less bloodshed and easier integration of conquered peoples, regardless of whether or not the Roman empire itself survives, but that is pure speculation on my part.

 

[Mackus]

Well, there would be two version of "Christianity". One roman polytheistic, with Jesus as part of pantheon, and other purist, monotheist.
People who wanted to worship Christ, would more often than not choose first version, since it wouldn't even require a conversion, and since second would be considered extremist, revolutionary, like today ISIL.

 

[Spengler]

With a POD not before his crucifixion, is there a way to have the Christian God/Christ successfully integrated into the Roman Pantheon?

Obviously this will require finding a way to address, sublimate or eliminate the Christian focus on Monotheism. Can it be done? What would a polytheism-compatible version of Christ be like? And how would this affect the course of history?

They tried like repeated times, the whole problem romans had was that the Christians wouldn't bite and wouldn't pray for Rome.

 

[Napoleonrules]

As a Jew I laugh every time a thread involves butterflying away Christianity and someone would say "another monotheistic religion will come along" as if Judaism did not already exist. Judaism was already the single largest religion in the multi religious Roman Empire.

 

[Orsino]

They tried like repeated times, the whole problem romans had was that the Christians wouldn't bite and wouldn't pray for Rome.

Indeed, I think the crucial difference would be to embrace Christ very early on, so that the number of converts to the polytheist version far outnumber converts to the monotheist version. Basically I'm saying integration would require the Roman State to go all out in promoting and publicising their own version of Christ before most people have even heard of him and whilst monotheist Christians are still small in number. That didn't happen in OTL.

As a Jew I laugh every time a thread involves butterflying away Christianity and someone would say "another monotheistic religion will come along" as if Judaism did not already exist. Judaism was already the single largest religion in the multi religious Roman Empire.

That rather depends on your definition of "single religion" and as two (ultimately far more popular) monotheistic religions followed Judaism in OTL it is reasonable to expect another one would come along if Christianity was butterflied. Proselytising monotheism clearly met a need.

 

[Legofan4]

Indeed, I think the crucial difference would be to embrace Christ very early on, so that the number of converts to the polytheist version far outnumber converts to the monotheist version. Basically I'm saying integration would require the Roman State to go all out in promoting and publicising their own version of Christ before most people have even heard of him and whilst monotheist Christians are still small in number. That didn't happen in OTL.

Which means that they would need to see the future to determine that this small local religion would one day grow to dominate the empire. Why would they go out of their way to integrate Jesus into their pantheon and promote it around the empire if they never really did so before?

 

[GdwnsnHo]

Personally I think that the best opportunity would be to point out that the 10 Commandments don't explictly state that you cannot acknowledge the existence of other gods (at least in English, they may in Hebrew, in which case this is moot).

Because of this Christianity could reinterpret the 10 commandments as Henotheistic, which would be much easier to integrate, as it can happily acknowledge Jupiter, etc - but with the unique exception that Christians (and Henotheistic Jews) see their God as the primary God, rather than Jupiter.

Jesus is still the Son of Jehovah, whose hardcore worshippers consider him first among the Gods. In such a universe (butteflies permitting) Constantine may simply be elevating Jehovah above Jupiter, or considering the two the same (more contentious to the Ambrahamic followers).

 

[dannythegreat]

As a Jew I laugh every time a thread involves butterflying away Christianity and someone would say "another monotheistic religion will come along" as if Judaism did not already exist. Judaism was already the single largest religion in the multi religious Roman Empire.

Source? Judaism was just one of the multiple of ethnic religions at the time, and Jews weren't the largest ethnic group, so how does it make up a plurality? There are more Greeks, Italians, or Egyptians than Jews in the empire, so one of their respective ethnic religions would be the largest.

 

[Napoleonrules]

Source? Judaism was just one of the multiple of ethnic religions at the time, and Jews weren't the largest ethnic group, so how does it make up a plurality? There are more Greeks, Italians, or Egyptians than Jews in the empire, so one of their respective ethnic religions would be the largest.

Judaism at that point was no longer an ethnic religion as it had been proselytizing for quite some time. Judaism only stopped because of the problem they had with converts not understanding monotheism and creating this concept of Christianity. Kinda turned Jews off from wanting more converts after that.

Greeks and Egyptians and Romans had all fragmented from their pantheons into mysteries and semi-montheistic religions based on Isis, Osiris, and others. There was also some Zoroastrians.

 

[dannythegreat]

Judaism at that point was no longer an ethnic religion as it had been proselytizing for quite some time. Judaism only stopped because of the problem they had with converts not understanding monotheism and creating this concept of Christianity. Kinda turned Jews off from wanting more converts after that.

Greeks and Egyptians and Romans had all fragmented from their pantheons into mysteries and semi-montheistic religions based on Isis, Osiris, and others. There was also some Zoroastrians.

The idea that Christianity formed as a misunderstanding of Judaism is pretty laughable.

Disregarding that, if you're going to consider each (non-exclusive) cult as a separate religion, why not do the same to the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes? Mystery cults were mostly popular among the urban elite anyway, in the country where the majority of the population resided traditional folk religion remained strong. There's really no case to be made for Judaism forming a plurality in the Roman Empire, especially considering that Judea was under direct Roman rule for less than 200 years before the diaspora happened.

 

[Orsino]

Which means that they would need to see the future to determine that this small local religion would one day grow to dominate the empire. Why would they go out of their way to integrate Jesus into their pantheon and promote it around the empire if they never really did so before?

No one needs to see the future for the Romans to embrace Christ early, all you need is for an emperor to be converted to a polytheist version of Christ and make it his pet project to promote this new member of the pantheon.

 

[ZecoreZecron]

In all honesty, a Romanized Jesus would probably be more like a deity of harvest and/or death, what with the whole resurrection thing and the fish and bread.