AHC: Insular Celtic domination of mainland Europe

Deleted member 114175

Challenge: after the extinction of most Continental Celtic languages, have the Insular Celtic groups (such as Irish, Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Breton, Manx, extinct Cumbric and Cornish, etc.) conquer and dominate mainland Europe, to the extent that substantial parts of mainland Europe besides Brittany speak Celtic languages. The POD must be after 400.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
A Celtic/Britonnic Empire that originated with its base in Britain/Sub Roman Britain and then conquers France and parts of Spain could help.
 
Hm, very difficult to have them 'dominate' Europe, but much more than OTL is possible. Eg at the same time that Britons were migrating to Brittany - 5th and early 6th centuries, there was a parallel, but very much smaller migration to Galicia in the Iberian peninsula. We know very little about this; it appears to have had few longterm consequences. Now, supposing the main focus of Brythonic migration was Galicia and not Brittany. They are welcomed by the not very numerous local population, defeat the Suebi, and immigration is so overwhelming that by 600 CE Brythonic is the dominant speech throughout Galicia. The kingdom(s) they found there holds off the Visigoths. The Islamic invasion still happens much as in OTL, and as in OTL Galicia is mostly spared, and rapidly regains its independance. At this time the language is consolidated, and, because it's all one realm, even spreads into Asturias to some extent.

The Brytho-Galician kingdom takes part in the Reconquista, and the language naturally spreads south into the reclaimed lans of Lusitania, ie Portugal. Subsequent history runs parallel to ours; Lusitania remains independant of Spain, develops a maritime empire, and colonises half of South America. The language, though influenced by Iberian Romance, remains strongly Celtic. I envisage it as being a bit like the Vannes dialect of Breton. Even when the king is from a foreign dynasty, the aristocracy remains firmly Brythonic in speech and culture, and patronises poetry in the traditional Celtic manner.

Voila! Portugal, Galicia, Brazil, and Western Asturias all Celtic speaking!
 

Very novel idea, I've certainly heard of way less plausible scenarios playing out on this board!

As an aside, your idea reminds me of the notion of pre-Roman Galicia somehow avoiding being conquered and/or Latinized, resulting in a Celtiberian Luso-Galician kingdom sitting next to something like OTL's Spain (mostly inspired by THIS look at a relevant conlang). It doesn't meet the OP, but does make for somebody OTHER than a Latinate state getting in big on the Age of Exploration.

Anyway, a certain timeline by a great, sadly-deceased poster on this site comes to mind, which could've led to a Welsh "United Kingdom" expy possibly getting in on European power plays, and potentially an empire in the future.
 
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Albert.Nik

Banned
Dominating Europe is almost impossible. Probably if they en masse Join the then waning Roman Empire,they would have a possibility. Otherwise,they wouldn't stand a chance against Franks whom they have to cross before making a mark in Mainland Europe.
 
a united british "england" that kills the kingdom of west frankia in the crib by controlling the northern portion would be a major player on the continent, and its language would be widely spoken across the courts of europe.
 
Very novel idea, I've certainly heard of way less plausible scenarios playing out on this board!

As an aside, your idea reminds me of the notion of pre-Roman Galicia somehow avoiding being conquered and/or Latinized, resulting in a Celtiberian Luso-Galician kingdom sitting next to something like OTL's Spain (mostly inspired by THIS look at a relevant conlang). It doesn't meet the OP, but does make for somebody OTHER than a Latinate state getting in big on the Age of Exploration.

Anyway, a certain timeline by a great, sadly-deceased poster on this site comes to mind, which could've led to a Welsh "United Kingdom" expy possibly getting in on European power plays, and potentially an empire in the future.

Thank you, and thanks for the two links, both extremely interesting.
 

zhropkick

Banned
Hm, very difficult to have them 'dominate' Europe, but much more than OTL is possible. Eg at the same time that Britons were migrating to Brittany - 5th and early 6th centuries, there was a parallel, but very much smaller migration to Galicia in the Iberian peninsula. We know very little about this; it appears to have had few longterm consequences. Now, supposing the main focus of Brythonic migration was Galicia and not Brittany. They are welcomed by the not very numerous local population, defeat the Suebi, and immigration is so overwhelming that by 600 CE Brythonic is the dominant speech throughout Galicia. The kingdom(s) they found there holds off the Visigoths. The Islamic invasion still happens much as in OTL, and as in OTL Galicia is mostly spared, and rapidly regains its independance. At this time the language is consolidated, and, because it's all one realm, even spreads into Asturias to some extent.

The Brytho-Galician kingdom takes part in the Reconquista, and the language naturally spreads south into the reclaimed lans of Lusitania, ie Portugal. Subsequent history runs parallel to ours; Lusitania remains independant of Spain, develops a maritime empire, and colonises half of South America. The language, though influenced by Iberian Romance, remains strongly Celtic. I envisage it as being a bit like the Vannes dialect of Breton. Even when the king is from a foreign dynasty, the aristocracy remains firmly Brythonic in speech and culture, and patronises poetry in the traditional Celtic manner.

Voila! Portugal, Galicia, Brazil, and Western Asturias all Celtic speaking!
Could you have one of their former colonies become a superpower more or less, turning an insular Celtic language into a European lingua-franca like English is today?
 

Deleted member 114175

The Brytho-Galician kingdom takes part in the Reconquista, and the language naturally spreads south into the reclaimed lans of Lusitania, ie Portugal. Subsequent history runs parallel to ours; Lusitania remains independant of Spain, develops a maritime empire, and colonises half of South America. The language, though influenced by Iberian Romance, remains strongly Celtic. I envisage it as being a bit like the Vannes dialect of Breton. Even when the king is from a foreign dynasty, the aristocracy remains firmly Brythonic in speech and culture, and patronises poetry in the traditional Celtic manner.

Voila! Portugal, Galicia, Brazil, and Western Asturias all Celtic speaking!
What about larger parts of Iberia -- since the Douro valley was at one point a no-man's land during the Reconquista, then could the whole of Castile be resettled and assimilated by Celtic Galicians?
 
Could you have one of their former colonies become a superpower more or less, turning an insular Celtic language into a European lingua-franca like English is today?

Well, Lusitanian (Brytho-Galician) is certainly a major world language in this scenario, being spoken in Brasil (named after Hy Brasil in TTL) and all the other former Lusitanian colonies round the world. I would judge it's about 6th by numbers of speakers. Brasil certainly has the capacity to become a superpower, so the sky's the limit!

What about larger parts of Iberia -- since the Douro valley was at one point a no-man's land during the Reconquista, then could the whole of Castile be resettled and assimilated by Celtic Galicians?

It's possible to some extent. I already have Western Asturias as Celtic speaking. Gradually the language, or dialects of it, spreads to the whole of Asturias. The Duero valley and old Castile is much more devastated, hence depopulated by the war with Al-Andaluz than in OTL. In about 860 CE the city of Leon (Kerleon) is repopulated by celtic speaking Asturians; Burgos is celtic in speech about a century later. With the Romance dialect that became (Castiliant) Spanish OTL shut up behind the mountains in Cantabria, Asturian Celtic, the eastward extension of Galician, spreads over Old Castile and southwards into New Castile, Extremadura etc. However I don't think it will 'take over' Navarre (which anyway I would hope to see more strongly and widely Basque speaking than OTL :)), Aragon or Catalonia-Valencia. Thus the Iberian peninsular is more linguistically diverse than OTL.
 
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