AHC: Independent Occitania

Your Mission, should you choose to accept it, is to create an independent Occitania. The POD must be between 1000 and 1800.

Bonus Points will be awarded if Occitania and France remain rivals into the present day. Additional Points if Occitania can become a colonial power.

EDIT: Let's expand the POD a bit to allow for something later. The earlier the POD the better.
 
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One POD could be the abduction of Eleanor of Aquitaine in between the annulment of her marriage to Louis VII and her marriage to Henry II. From what I remember, two men tried to abduct her on her journey from Beaugency (?) to Poitiers, but neither was an Occitan. If an Occitan were to abduct and marry her....well, if she allowed him to live, that is.
 
1) Occitania being a name forged by capetian administration, in order to name a region that doesn't have a clear name (having part of Aquitaine, part of Gothia, part of Auvergne), you won't have something called such if you prevent capetian takeover.

2) Now, you could have independence of an occitan state, if the entiere is dubious. Aragon-Barcelona is the most likely candidate as it was independent after all. With a victory of Aragonese-Tolosan alliance at Muret, you could end with an occitan state going from Provence to Tolsan to Valencia.
However, it would let Aquitaine outside.

3) Anothers, quite interesting, PoD could be a Frankish takeover that is not Capetian or not royal capetian.

- Simon de Monfort living on, managing to unify Toulouse and Trencavel's domains could make a super-principality.

- Alphonse de Poitiers having an heir could do it : he had Poitou, Toulouse, Provence, etc. as an apanage and it could admittedly end like others ones, especially Burgundy.
 
One POD could be the abduction of Eleanor of Aquitaine in between the annulment of her marriage to Louis VII and her marriage to Henry II. From what I remember, two men tried to abduct her on her journey from Beaugency (?) to Poitiers, but neither was an Occitan. If an Occitan were to abduct and marry her....well, if she allowed him to live, that is.
I think there is a way for Raymond V of Toulouse to marry Eleanor of Aquitaine and that is if Eleanor approaches Raymond V of Toulouse and not Henry II of England for marriage
 
I think there is a way for Raymond V of Toulouse to marry Eleanor of Aquitaine and that is if Eleanor approaches Raymond V of Toulouse and not Henry II of England for marriage

Given the long animosity, if not hostility, between Aquitaine and Toulouse, I think it's quite implausible without a really good twist.

With a PoD after 1000, the conquest of Tolsan by Guilhèm X in the name of his spouse would increase Aquitaine power, but it would be far from taking over all OTL medieval Occitania : no Catalonia, Gothia,, Provence, part of Auvergne.

I doubt Aquitaine could expand much more without forming against itself a league of feudal lords, including the king (that could intervene as he did OTL, in behalf of Toulouse).
Basically, you'll have still the frequent wars that plagued the region, only made by 2 or 3 players instead of 4 or 5.

Finally, while it would expand Aquitaine domination, it wouldn't resolve two big obstacle : its great feudal fragmentation, and french suzerainty that if it was relativly theoritical was still in duchy policy within the kingdom.

So while the PoD could work at short-range, you'll need several changes in Aquitaine and in France to turn it to an independent *Occitania (if you mean independent relative to the king, the feudal principalities were already acting such, if limited by royal suzerainty).
 
I think there is a way for Raymond V of Toulouse to marry Eleanor of Aquitaine and that is if Eleanor approaches Raymond V of Toulouse and not Henry II of England for marriage

Marriage in those days did not require the consent of the bride to be fully legal. If Raymond decided to abduct and marry Eleanor he would not need her agreement or consent.
 
1) There's no way, clearly no way, that he could have abducted the daughter of what was basically the most important lord of the southern part of the kingdom.
Not without launching a war against himself, pissed many of his own vassals and have the king more or less frown upon this.
Sucidal doesn't covers it.

2) Actually, yes, consent was asked.
It doesn't mean marriages weren't arranged for feudal elites of course, but we're right in the period where church tries to impose consent as a base for a regular and accepted (by them) church. Any kind of legal rape tentative on Eleanor isn't going to be taken well, critically seeing how the duke of Aquitaine is already relativly seen in a positive light then.

Of course, such forced union if ASB allows it (and believe me, I rarely use this term) isn't going to provide any reasonable claim on Aquitaine sucession.

To resume : best way to have almost everyone considers him as too insane to live, including in his own lands (Trencavel are going to love this, having a clear alliance and a clear reason to go at war). At the very best, Raimond loose only Tolsan. More likely, he loose Tolsan and what he have in Provence is takenover by someone else (Barcelona, maybe).

I would add that is not that fitting with what we know about Raimond V's personnality : pragmatic, showing diplomatic skills as well than military, quite pious as well.
Not exactly the abducting munchkin type.
 
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birdboy2000

Banned
It's very easy to do during the Carolingian era - they had a notional kingdom of Aquitaine containing most of the relevant lands, but the final partition saw it merge with France. Sadly, that's outside the bounds of the PoD.

The duchy of Aquitaine, however, needs to both absorb Toulouse and to win independence from France, and the two goals are somewhat at odds - because of it tries to devour Toulouse, it winds up with nearly half the kingdom and will be extremely feared by other feudal lords, leaving it with few allies to break the power of the French King.

The key, I think, would be to do it the other way around - make the French vassals, led by Aquitaine, unite in the defense of their noble privileges against the monarchy, and in doing so cause the French crown to cease to matter - first de facto, then eventually de jure. And once that's done and there's no more France to worry about, absorb Toulouse through marriage or warfare without bringing down more powerful polities on their head.

This process, however, can be difficult to accomplish and take a very long time - the only medieval realm to fracture like this OTL was the Holy Roman Empire, which lost effective sovereignity in 1648 and de jure ceased to exist only in the Napoleonic era. And needless to say, it isn't compatible with anything like the OTL Hundred Years War.

So suppose Aquitaine comes at some point to follow full salic law, preventing any women from inheriting it and marrying a male duke or king elsewhere and turning Aquitaine into an appendage of some larger state - a turn of events which OTL not only destroyed the most powerful duchy in Occitania, but also began the process that led to French consolidation, as England became a major threat to France. And had Eleanor's marriage to the French king produced an inheritance it wouldn't have been any better - if France ever inherits Aquitaine, it's likely to either rule it directly or break it up into smaller, less dangerous feudal holdings, depending on the time period.

Suppose the French state, rather than becoming a strong centralized entity, is unable to corral its dukes and eventually is rendered irrelevant over the nominal kingdom, although perhaps as dukes of the Paris region may claim some level of local political power. Suppose that during that period, Aquitaine remains intact - no easy feat - or alternatively, that it doesn't, but some successor state in southern France manages to reach a dominant position in that region in its place. Suppose something similar to nationalism develops, suppose it develops the idea of a pan-Occitan state instead of harkening back to West Francia, and that the dukes of Aquitaine (or whoever replaces it, as we're talking about hundreds of years of history for borders in southern France to shift) manage to ride that wave to unification, perhaps absorbing Provence from whoever winds up holding it as well. Or alternatively, suppose they get a successful marriage inheritance with whoever holds it, or at least a claim on the throne which they manage to enforce through warfare, without bringing down an alliance system capable of stopping them on their heads.

I think that turn of events could lead to an Occitan state.
 
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katchen

Banned
Subotai is conquering in what is now Ukraine in 1225 after having conquered Georgia. IOTL, he is summoned back to Chinggis Khan's side and returns. But in 1225, Europe is in a rare moment of weakness. Andrew II has returned from the unsuccessful Fifth Crusade and is having to concede a large amount of power to his nobles, particularly the Saxon boyars of Transylvaniahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_II_of_Hungary . Farther west, Frederick II Barbarossa, the Holy Roman Emperor is in Sicily with his army after failing at the Fifth Crusade and disappointing his Pope, Honorius III.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorius_III, who also has been pushing the Albigensian Crusade--IN OCCITANIA. THAT CRUSADE IS FAILING AS OF 1225. .wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade In fact in 1225, Bogomilism/Catharism is spreading throughout Italy as well as Occitania http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=128890. Only Ivan Asen II of Bulgaria shows any real strength n.wikipedia.org/wiki. /Ivan_Asen_II_of_Bulgaria. And Bulgaria, where Bogomilism started is also predominantly Bogomil.
Which means that Subotai has a rare opportunity to nullify the relatively high population of Western Europe, particularly France and conquer much of Europe by taking full advantage of Europe's momentary lack of religious and political unity. This is a rare moment of weakness for Europe that IOTL, passes within 5 years. And ITTL, Subotai takes full advantage of it, bypassing the strong Bulgarian Empire for the time being, but defeating and overruning the Kingdom of Hungary, then crossing into Italy, where the Mongols can achieve the submission of the Northern Italian city states before turning south to defeat the Papal soldiery at Rome and sack Rome, abducting Pope and Curia and taking all manuscripts the Mongols can find as booty as well. Then defeating those of Frederick Barbarossa's troops Subotai can find on the Italian mainland from Napoli to Calabria.
Then Subotai continues farther west to Occitania, where he receives the submission and vassalage of Raymond of Toulouse in return for protection, then pursues and destroys the French Army and killing King Louis VIII before proceeding to the Low Countries, only then returning home via Germany and Poland with a stop at Bulgaria and Constantinople. Leaving forces to occupy Europe, AND TO ENFORCE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AMONGST OTHER NEW FREEDOMS, Subotai returns home. A now overtly Cathar/Bogomil Occitania is now free to become a separate nation from France, which it does.
 
It's very easy to do during the Carolingian era - they had a notional kingdom of Aquitaine containing most of the relevant lands, but the final partition saw it merge with France. Sadly, that's outside the bounds of the PoD.
While the carolingian sub-kingdom of Aquitaine enjoyed a great autonomy (having its own chancery during Louis I reign by exemple), it was still under frankish authority : not only the suzerainty of emperors or carolingian kings, but because of the replacement of local nobility by austrasian (when not relatives of carolingians) rulers, as Gulhèm as count of Toulouse.

The palaces of the kings of Aquitaine were systematically along the Loire river, while the southern marches (Gascony, Marche of Toulouse/Marche of Spain) acted autonomously and more often directly under the authority of emperors than kings (Don't forget that Louis was made king of Aquitaine in his infancy and that Charlemagne expressly asked his tutors to avoid him turning into a "roman").

After the revolt of Pippin II (that was quite limited), Aquitaine even if someties treated as a sub-kingdom (more usually as a titular kingdom though, not unlike Algraves) constitutent of Western Francia rather than distinct.

The duchy of Aquitaine, however, needs to both absorb Toulouse and to win independence from France, and the two goals are somewhat at odds - because of it tries to devour Toulouse, it winds up with nearly half the kingdom and will be extremely feared by other feudal lords, leaving it with few allies to break the power of the French King.
Well, Guilhèm IX tried (and managed sucessfully) to do that in the early XII century, having taken Tolsan (for 20 years) and Rouergue (for 10 years), basing himself on his wife's right being denied by Raimond IV.
The issue is far less having Aquitaine being able to conquer these territories than actually holding them : as you said, it would have encountered many resistences.

- Neighbouring rivals and local nobility, particularly Barcelona, and nobility of conquered lands : OTL the local nobles mainly stiood with Anfòs Jordan (Loyalty being far more due to a dynasty than an abstract and anachronistic cultural unity). Furthermore, Aquitaine was actually divided in many autonomous entities as Auvergne that wouldn't have seen the reinforcement of ducal authority with too much joy. The possibility of having opposers inside the duchy itself were huge.

-Church : Late Ramnulfids had regulars tended relations with churches, often excommunicated or at least taken with great caution.

- King
Not only because of its growing political and military power that allowed him to intervene in all his kingdom, but because his royal title allowed him anyway to crisallise feudal dynamics.

That's eventually the issue with breaking the royal power and rejecting its suzerainty : if the Duke of Aquitaine tried that, his own vassals would have felt authorized eventually to do the same with him. Seeing how much medieval occitan principalities knew feudal division inside their own lands (the size of Aquitaine can be illusory in this regard, but it was a true puzzle), this could have been a bad move.
Basically, the king was the "pillar" of feudal society : removing it outright could have cause the collapse of the whole edifice. Even during the late X, when Aquitains refused to acknowledge Capetians, they used a Carolingian pretender to royal title to justify it.

So suppose Aquitaine comes at some point to follow full salic law preventing any women from inheriting it
Really unlikely to happen, because of butterflies. OTL, what we call wrongly salic law (it was an interpretation of salic law regarding royal sucession), was the result of a relativly precise process.
First, the female inheritence was rare and exceptionnal even before : the question was if they were able to transmit a title. Without the Artois sucession crisis, the question would be still opened (basically the matter of female sucession or transmission was ruled even before the French sucession crisis, where very few support of Joan of Navarra showed up).

And if Aquitaine manages somehow, to become more autonomous, I doubt salic law would be involved, but or the occitano-roman customs (Brievary of Alaric, by exemple) or the customs of Poitou, both that were more or less blurry and helpless about this precise subject (that is anyway an interpretation and adaptation to the ducal sucession that could appear anyway only if there's a need for this).

Suppose something similar to nationalism develops, suppose it develops the idea of a pan-Occitan state instead of harkening back to West Francia,
Seeing how Occitan, up to the word itself, is a creation of capetian administration, I really doubt that butterflying away the french takeover would allow it to exist nevertheless. You may end with an Aquitain "nationalism", maybe, but certainly not Pan-Occitan (that would have been hard to define anyway, few nationalisms are based only on language).
 
And ITTL, Subotai takes full advantage of it, bypassing the strong Bulgarian Empire for the time being, but defeating and overruning the Kingdom of Hungary, then crossing into Italy, where the Mongols can achieve the submission of the Northern Italian city states before turning south to defeat the Papal soldiery at Rome and sack Rome, abducting Pope and Curia and taking all manuscripts the Mongols can find as booty as well.

I thought we were talking about the born of Occitania, not the Catholicism death :p :p

Seriously, good approach!
 
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