AHC: Independent Eastern Med around 1AD

[galanx]

What's a POD that reduces Roman domination of the east (Egypt, Judea, Asia Minor) enough to allow them to act as independent kingdoms- allowing even for Roman influence- but is late enough to not butterfly the honeymoon of a carpenter from Nazareth and his new bride.

Distracting civil war, victorious Mark Anthony or ???- or do you have to go right back to Mithridates?

Thinking of Yeshua, a young religious reformer in an independent Judea.

 

[darthfanta]

The Romans never getting Pergamum or losing the war against Antiochus III the Great.

 

[Hashoosh]

The Romans never getting Pergamum or losing the war against Antiochus III the Great.

That's quite a while before the birth of Jesus, and I'd think it butterflies it away.

As for OP, do you mean independent of the Romans or independent in general. AFAIK the Seleucid state held dominance over most of the region, contending with Egypt for domination of the Levant and only losing Asia Minor to Pergamum after losing a war to the Romans. I'm guessing you mean the status quo before the Romans came sweeping in, or just no Romans at all?

Thinking of a PoD here, you could have Augustus die a few years into the principate, and have Rome descend into another power struggle. The Parthians could then sweep in and remove the Romans, only to then be removed by the natives?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

The earliest POD you can get, really, is Mithradates I mean, remember, the Romans were still controlling most of the east through client kingdoms by 1AD-Judea, Cappadocia, Galatia, Armenia, Thrace...which is almost a given for them after Mithradates at least.

The best you can do later than that is the Romans simply keep more client kingdoms, but that's still de facto Roman domination. A rump Seleucid Syrian state, Ptolemaic Egypt, rump Pontus...that's about it.

 

[galanx]

Independent enough that the Romans don't heavily interfere internally.

It's basically a "Jesus (or more likely Saul/Paul) as Mohammed" as in how would an extremely reformist Jewish-but-open-to-Gentile-converts religion that took over Judea develop?

 

[Westphalian]

Well, technically it is before the assumed birth of Mary, but IMO the latest PoD would be Octavian's death around Actium, before M. Antonius and Kleopatra VII are killed.
Thereby, you have an independent Egypt and all the results of the Donations of Alexandria, once those kids are grown up:

Armenia is with Alexander Helios
Lybia and Crete are with Kleopatra Selene II
Syria and Cilicia are with Ptolemy Philadelphos
Egypt is with Kleopatra or Caesarion

Judaea is with Herodes or his heir
Pontus has a client king, Polemon Pythodoros
Cappadocia has a client king, Archelaus

That is, at least on paper. rather Roman free.

 

[galanx]

Well, technically it is before the assumed birth of Mary, but IMO the latest PoD would be Octavian's death around Actium, before M. Antonius and Kleopatra VII are killed.
Thereby, you have an independent Egypt and all the results of the Donations of Alexandria, once those kids are grown up:

Armenia is with Alexander Helios
Lybia and Crete are with Kleopatra Selene II
Syria and Cilicia are with Ptolemy Philadelphos
Egypt is with Kleopatra or Caesarion

Judaea is with Herodes or his heir
Pontus has a client king, Polemon Pythodoros
Cappadocia has a client king, Archelaus

That is, at least on paper. rather Roman free.

Thanks. That does seem to be settled enough to not disturb the happy couple, as long as we can keep Judea relatively war-free.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

On paper, yes. But I have my doubts how much of that was Antony actually being serious. For starters, Antony has to actually get around to conquering Parthia. Second, none of that changes the reality of Roman domination-all those places are going to be as dominated by Rome as all of Rome's clients were.

 

[galanx]

On paper, yes. But I have my doubts how much of that was Antony actually being serious. For starters, Antony has to actually get around to conquering Parthia. Second, none of that changes the reality of Roman domination-all those places are going to be as dominated by Rome as all of Rome's clients were.

Just looking at the map of the Donations they do seem rather grandiose and unrealistic.

How about an extended civil war in Rome following Octavian's death? Anthony/Cleopatra hold Egypt/the East for a while until Antony's death; various factions fight in Rome/Spain/Greece etc.

Still, you have to keep the East independent for another 60 years...hmmm.

Balance of power with Egypt/Parthia allied against Rome?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Egypt isn't going to turn against Rome-not only does it not have any military strength, it's been a de facto Roman client for a century, and their rulers relied on Rome for keeping them in power. A civil war after Octavian's death is, I don't think, realistic either. Rome was pretty much exhausted of war by 30 BCE, and Antony is, in the event of Octavian's death, in the same position Octavian was in as far as how much power he possesses.

Now, theoretically, you can have a much earlier POD and still have Jesus be born-I mean, I'm not sure how much events will cause butterflies to effect a small and unimportant town of Nazareth.