Challenge: With a starting time, between 1814 to the 1870s, have the Cities of Genoa and Venice gain independence as a Vatican City Style City-State, or San Marino Style Microstate from either Austria, Italy or France
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AHC: Independent Cities of Venice and Genoa
- Thread starter GameBawesome
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I did a scenario for this happening in Venice within the Maleverse some years ago. It is possible starting with IOTL with a 1848 POD, if the Venetian Republic somehow manages to resist the Austrians. Not easy, as it assumes that Austria is so concerned elsewhere that it does not bother with crushing it, which sounds hard (the place would be bound to be hotbed of anti-Austrian activity if it somehow lasts).
Genoa is even harder, the place rebelled against the Savoys and was generally discontent about the Piedmontese, but the risings were doomed.
You can imagine a situation where both republics are restored at Vienna, though this would require different territoral arrangements elsewhere and is not very like given the general attitude of the Congress (Venice is easier than Genoa to do, but then you'd need something to compensate Austria with, and would still be a less than satisfactory arrangement for the Austrians, since they're still holding Lombardy). I also assume this is not what the OP wants.
So... let's say that an Italian Revolution takes place.
Not just the (partly revolutionary, but that part ultimately did not win out) Italian Unification Movement, but a truly revolutionary one, that sweeps the peninsula, or at least the North, and is successful enough to overthrow the local monarchs and the Austrians long term. Probably requiring foreing (French?) support. The inspiring ideology is a form of cantonal republicanism not unlike what Carlo Cattaneo suggested IOTL. Endgame, you have something that resembles, and might also be called, the Lombard League (in the Medieval sense, not the political party) in that it is a federal arrangement of cantons centered around major cities/town, probably roughly equivalent with OTL's modern Italian provinces (whose borders often roughly parallel the ones between Medieval communes indeed). Later on, both Genoa and Venice fall out with the confederal government and decide to "secede", perhaps ceding parts of their hinterland in exchange for a peaceful separation. The closest OTL parallel I can think of is Singapore, I'd guess. This is very far fetched, I know, but it is really not easy for an independent city state like this to emerge (as opposed to just surviving; I can imagine Hamburg to do that) in the given area and timeframe.
Genoa is even harder, the place rebelled against the Savoys and was generally discontent about the Piedmontese, but the risings were doomed.
You can imagine a situation where both republics are restored at Vienna, though this would require different territoral arrangements elsewhere and is not very like given the general attitude of the Congress (Venice is easier than Genoa to do, but then you'd need something to compensate Austria with, and would still be a less than satisfactory arrangement for the Austrians, since they're still holding Lombardy). I also assume this is not what the OP wants.
So... let's say that an Italian Revolution takes place.
Not just the (partly revolutionary, but that part ultimately did not win out) Italian Unification Movement, but a truly revolutionary one, that sweeps the peninsula, or at least the North, and is successful enough to overthrow the local monarchs and the Austrians long term. Probably requiring foreing (French?) support. The inspiring ideology is a form of cantonal republicanism not unlike what Carlo Cattaneo suggested IOTL. Endgame, you have something that resembles, and might also be called, the Lombard League (in the Medieval sense, not the political party) in that it is a federal arrangement of cantons centered around major cities/town, probably roughly equivalent with OTL's modern Italian provinces (whose borders often roughly parallel the ones between Medieval communes indeed). Later on, both Genoa and Venice fall out with the confederal government and decide to "secede", perhaps ceding parts of their hinterland in exchange for a peaceful separation. The closest OTL parallel I can think of is Singapore, I'd guess. This is very far fetched, I know, but it is really not easy for an independent city state like this to emerge (as opposed to just surviving; I can imagine Hamburg to do that) in the given area and timeframe.
O wait, you said starting time. Well, then there's another "easy" way.
Italian unification happens, but it is a somewhat bloodier, longer and more controversial process than IOTL. We may say, Garibaldi and the King don't get along at all, and all sort of instability and internal messes ensue. Venice and Genoa, owing to their deep-seated Republican and localist traditions, are among the hotbeds of discontent. Some Italian government that is even less competent than the OTL's rather low bar average tries to unite the very divided and fractious nation by joining a WWI analog, in which it happens to end on the very wrong end of the alliance system, like being at war with France and Austria at the same time. The country gets utterly thrashed in the war, and this is so devastating and pointless that many want to forget the whole "Italy" thing (compare, the Austrian Empire in 1918). The victors decide that Venice and Genoa deserve independence once again while they enforce a balkanization of Italy.
Italian unification happens, but it is a somewhat bloodier, longer and more controversial process than IOTL. We may say, Garibaldi and the King don't get along at all, and all sort of instability and internal messes ensue. Venice and Genoa, owing to their deep-seated Republican and localist traditions, are among the hotbeds of discontent. Some Italian government that is even less competent than the OTL's rather low bar average tries to unite the very divided and fractious nation by joining a WWI analog, in which it happens to end on the very wrong end of the alliance system, like being at war with France and Austria at the same time. The country gets utterly thrashed in the war, and this is so devastating and pointless that many want to forget the whole "Italy" thing (compare, the Austrian Empire in 1918). The victors decide that Venice and Genoa deserve independence once again while they enforce a balkanization of Italy.
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What I mean by that, is it can happen any time between 1814-1870s, like Genoa gaining independence in 1814, or Venice declaring independence from the French and have Italy invade most Veneto, except the city itself. Thank you for commenting
I actually liked your previous post of Venice and Genoa reestablishing as Singapore style States, that is actually the challenge.
Yeah, but it is a hard one. The geopolitical and ideological context was pushing right in the other way. It is marginally easier for Venice (which, like Singapore, is after all separated from the mainland by a body of water, and had also a much more independent streak AFAIK, somewhat lasting to this day). Ok, I'll go for this.
1849. Garibaldines actually show up to save the day in the last days of the insurgent Republic. This ties down enough Austrian forces that the resumed war with Piedmont drags on, instead of ending with a single decisive Piedmontese defeat. Maybe Russia hesitates to intervene in Hungary so Austria remains embattled. Odds still are that the Austrians win both in Hungary and Lombardy, but maybe this lasts into 1850, and Vienna is busy enough (Hungary, Prussia) that they let Venice be for the moment. By 1851 the tiny Republic is entrenched and public opinion abroad sympathetic. Maybe Austria opts to exact a vengeance from Piedmont in the form of the formerly Milanese land between the Ticino and Sesia river, as compensation but Hungary is restive enough that a protracted siege of Venice is set on the back-burner. Eventually, a very uneasy armistice is reached whereby the Austrians realize it is cheaper to exile all Italian malcontents to Venice than having them around. So they tacitly accept the de facto existence of the Republic (while still notionally claiming it as a part of the Venetian-Lombard kingdom not to lose face). Owing no gratitude to Russia, they join the *Crimean War, but that backfires as Hungary and Italy rebel again, Prussia makes worrying noises, and the army does perform underwhelmingly. Napoleon III questions the wisdom of allying with Austria ever again and turns to tiny Piedmont, that after a more heroic and humiliating defeat has turned more radical in its "irredentism" against Vienna, but also more absolutist than IOTL. It has reformed into a militarized, vengeful little power, but is not as attractive to Italian democrats and liberals. An Italian War of Independence similar to OTL happens around 1858-59 with a similar French intervention. Garibaldi is in Venice ITTL and in no mood to cooperate much with Turin, so while he organizes agitation against Austria, Naples may be left alone for now.
The Austrian rotten structure of an already battered army shatters and Lombardy and Venetia join Piedmont in a Kingdom of Upper Italy. The King reasons, like the Austrians before, he's better off keeping all those liberals in Venice, claiming he's respecting the Republic independence as a reward for the services the city did to the national cause (the reason adduced for not bothering with San Marino IOTL). The Republic is then internationally recognized.
Nowadays, the Most Serene Republic of Venice has lost much of its older tradition of political radicalism. The city-state where the First International routinely met and the Second one was permanently headquartered, where most of the Democrtatic, Republican and Anarchist plotting took place for three generations, where many dissidents from all over Europe found asylum in their exile, is now a hyper-capitalist mix of tourist trap, tax haven and de-luxe resort-with-casinos. Independence means little for a country that has to import essentially all foodstuff and manufactured items from the adjoining mainland (except for the few celebrated Sant'Erasmo artichokes and a little seafood) and therefore cannot afford not be in customs and regulatory union with it in most cases (though many drugs allowed in Venice are not so in Italy, so you may still be inspected by customs offices in Mestre over the bridge; other laws also differ: prostitution is emphatically legal and regulated in Venice, for both sexes; financial regulations are also a lot looser, and gambling, which Italy strictly regulates, is a thriving industry). However, Venice clings to her Republican distinct insititutions and symbology as more fiercely as they have actually little impact on the world. The Republic is home to some 120,000 permanent residents, over two-thirds of them being citizens, but the people in place there at any given time are between three and five as many, the rest being made of temporary residents and temporary visitors, either tourists or businessmen, who may ironically add to their visits the sight of the burials of Giuseppe Mazzini, Giuseppe Garibaldi, Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Mikhail Bakunin, Lev Bronstein, Rosa Luxemburg and William Morris.
Sorry, no idea how to do anything like this with Genoa.
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Habsburg policy in Italy in this time period is one of those interesting ventures in historical irony.
What Austria wanted at the Congress of Vienna was an Italy secure for her interests. That meant maximum Austrian domination, and minimal French influence; and "domination" meant either outright Austrian control (as in Venetia-Lombardy) or rule by Habsburg or Habsburg approved dynasts, the Papal States notwithstanding.
This bought Austria two more generations of domination of Italy; but a lighter footprint could well have given Austria a longer-lasting advantage.
It's hard to disagree that a restoration of Genoa is a hard row to hoe. Savoy desperately wants it; the Allies owe it something, and it's hard to see what they could offer in exchange that the Savoyards will accept.
Austria, however, is easier to compensate; though I think you must accept that any Venice that is restored is going to be considerably shrunken. A Venice reduced to the islands of the lagoon, on the other hand, really is not viable; but perhaps one that embraces just the core of the Venetian language region (roughly, the Po to the Tagliamento, up to the foothills of the Southern Limestone Alps) might possibly be palatable to Austria, if it can keep the rest of the old Venetian domains (with control of Brescia and Bergamo giving it direct military access to the rest of the peninsula), and perhaps a little more compensation in Southern Germany.
Even a reduced La Serenissima like this would be a a real obstacle to any Risorgimento. The more they feel like Venetians, after all, the less they will feel like....Italians. Enough Venetian identity still remained at this point (and obviously persevered into the mid-1800's) that such a state could have acted as a serious counterweight to unification. Pushed further, one could even apply this to other Italian city states, though just getting Venice out of Metternich's claws will be hard enough. Nonetheless, a disunited Italy is one that serves Austria's interests.
But all of this might be a difficult train of thought to be obvious to Metternich and his master, neither of whom was keen to take any chances on new risings of nationalism after what they had been through over the past 23 years. And it is not clear to me who could or would make the effort to persuade them so, unless possibly the British do so, on the grounds that an independent (if shrunken) Venice might be more in everyone's financial interests, Vienna's included.
What Austria wanted at the Congress of Vienna was an Italy secure for her interests. That meant maximum Austrian domination, and minimal French influence; and "domination" meant either outright Austrian control (as in Venetia-Lombardy) or rule by Habsburg or Habsburg approved dynasts, the Papal States notwithstanding.
This bought Austria two more generations of domination of Italy; but a lighter footprint could well have given Austria a longer-lasting advantage.
It's hard to disagree that a restoration of Genoa is a hard row to hoe. Savoy desperately wants it; the Allies owe it something, and it's hard to see what they could offer in exchange that the Savoyards will accept.
Austria, however, is easier to compensate; though I think you must accept that any Venice that is restored is going to be considerably shrunken. A Venice reduced to the islands of the lagoon, on the other hand, really is not viable; but perhaps one that embraces just the core of the Venetian language region (roughly, the Po to the Tagliamento, up to the foothills of the Southern Limestone Alps) might possibly be palatable to Austria, if it can keep the rest of the old Venetian domains (with control of Brescia and Bergamo giving it direct military access to the rest of the peninsula), and perhaps a little more compensation in Southern Germany.
Even a reduced La Serenissima like this would be a a real obstacle to any Risorgimento. The more they feel like Venetians, after all, the less they will feel like....Italians. Enough Venetian identity still remained at this point (and obviously persevered into the mid-1800's) that such a state could have acted as a serious counterweight to unification. Pushed further, one could even apply this to other Italian city states, though just getting Venice out of Metternich's claws will be hard enough. Nonetheless, a disunited Italy is one that serves Austria's interests.
But all of this might be a difficult train of thought to be obvious to Metternich and his master, neither of whom was keen to take any chances on new risings of nationalism after what they had been through over the past 23 years. And it is not clear to me who could or would make the effort to persuade them so, unless possibly the British do so, on the grounds that an independent (if shrunken) Venice might be more in everyone's financial interests, Vienna's included.