AHC: improved Deutschland-class cruisers.

I don't like all forward armament. Germans never managed to keep their foremost turret dry in heavy seas, even with Atlantic bows. And there's always the risk of knocking out all your main weaponry with a lucky hit.

The OTL config of one bow, one aft seems like the best one to me.

You're right: They needed an all aft heavy armament. For attacking merchants, a set of 5.9s up front will quite suffice. That way, if they must flee, the entire heavy armament is available.
 
OK this whole thread is weird! PBS/PzK were designed in the mid 1920s when the European situation was changing and UK was distant thought. There was no AGNT or 1930 treaty cruisers etc. Further to get the funding for these warships Groner had to debate the role of this ship in parliament as "Panzer Kreuzer" when being proposed to intercept a notional French cruiser squadron rushing to Poland aid.....When the threat was debated against WW-I Dreadnaught's of France or Russia , this was described as Pocket Battle ship. Groner almost cancelled the project until the design was upgraded to battle such ships in the Baltic. The upgrades increased the superstructure and forcing a torpedo bulge to be added protect against torpedo's and more guns....

That bulge cost the ship at least one knot as the hull was rated up to 30 knots maximum. Plans were drawn up to cover the torpedo bulge hull like Karlsruhe mod and add a transom stern to raise speed to 30 knots. Not going the 'bulge way' in the first place, would have saved a lot of problems.

I gather that plans were drawn up to convert the PBS into aircraft carriers during the war [like WESSER?] but not acted upon. .

BTW when this ship was designed there were only 11" & 6" gun designs available, no 8" guns or treaty cruisers to justify them !
 
The thing about 8" guns is that everyone had them, whereas the whole point of the PBS was to defeat any faster ship and escape more powerful gunned ships. The PBS 11" guns introduced a new problem into the naval sphere and put Germany on the front foot. It meant that cruisers had to operate in pairs of 8" or task forces of 8" and 6" ships, drastically limiting the number of patrol stations the RN could cover.
 
The point of the "pocket battleships" was to take the Versailles Treaty limits intended to allow no more than Baltic Coast Defense ships, and build the most "offensive" (in every sense of the word) ship possible within them. Given the limits imposed, there could never be much of a rational plan for the German Navy in case of war, but the Deutschland class would provide the most trouble to France before they went down. Detail improvements were possible, but the ships were a massive gesture of defiance, and they caused a worry in foreign navies that was well above the actual threat they posed as commerce raiders. Given the constraints and intentions, they have to count as successful designs.
 
The point of the "pocket battleships" was to take the Versailles Treaty limits intended to allow no more than Baltic Coast Defense ships, and build the most "offensive" (in every sense of the word) ship possible within them. Given the limits imposed, there could never be much of a rational plan for the German Navy in case of war, but the Deutschland class would provide the most trouble to France before they went down. Detail improvements were possible, but the ships were a massive gesture of defiance, and they caused a worry in foreign navies that was well above the actual threat they posed as commerce raiders. Given the constraints and intentions, they have to count as successful designs.
I totally agree, its only with hindsight and knowing they have to work together with post VT ships that impose limitations.
Hovever, we are asked to Wank them and only seek to comply.
I could see a desire to outrun hood and R&R as a pod to make them cheat a little more.
We keep the OTL hull as planned officially, add a bit of depth secretly and publicly underestimate speed and overestimate armor. Call it a Baltic mini-BB.
 
Convert into Aircraft Carriers. Do a quick and dirty job on Lutzow to make a training carrier, small navigation island, funnels ducted over the side, one small hangar one small lift and no catapult, say 10 aircraft capacity. The KM then romps round the Baltic learning the carrier ropes whilst Spee and Scheer are converted into a better design with Atlantic bow, bulged hull, Transom Stern, proper island, bigger hangar, lifts and catapult. They are going to be a little bit bigger than an Independence class carrier which carried about 32 but aircraft struck down Royal Navy fashion so an air group around about 20 to 24 aircraft. Bismark plus Prinz Eugen and a carrier Graf Spee would really ruin the sleep of the Admiralty.

To replace the raiding capabilities of them build more Merchant raiders they were better at it than a Pocket Battleship and a lot cheaper.
 
Convert into Aircraft Carriers. Do a quick and dirty job on Lutzow to make a training carrier, small navigation island, funnels ducted over the side, one small hangar one small lift and no catapult, say 10 aircraft capacity. The KM then romps round the Baltic learning the carrier ropes whilst Spee and Scheer are converted into a better design with Atlantic bow, bulged hull, Transom Stern, proper island, bigger hangar, lifts and catapult. They are going to be a little bit bigger than an Independence class carrier which carried about 32 but aircraft struck down Royal Navy fashion so an air group around about 20 to 24 aircraft. Bismark plus Prinz Eugen and a carrier Graf Spee would really ruin the sleep of the Admiralty.

To replace the raiding capabilities of them build more Merchant raiders they were better at it than a Pocket Battleship and a lot cheaper.

Other than the Luftwaffe have zero carrier capable planes at that point. That takes time.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Other than the Luftwaffe have zero carrier capable planes at that point. That takes time.
And no carrier qualified pilots. And no way to qualify them either. Not unless they want to somehow get pilots to Japan and let them train them.
 
Other than the Luftwaffe have zero carrier capable planes at that point. That takes time.

I agree thats why the Lutzow is basically a strip off the superstructure and bolt a flight deck on conversion. The KM learns how to handle a carrier the LW learns how to take off and land lightly converted hooked Heinkel 51 trainers. Me convert some 109s initially with fixed wings, Fieseler build their bomber and by 1941 there is a core of trained men ready for the proper carriers.
 
And no carrier qualified pilots. And no way to qualify them either. Not unless they want to somehow get pilots to Japan and let them train them.

Now to me, its possible to get some carrier operations in, had they tied it into the catapult ships they had used for mail deliveries Lufthansa was doing.
Like using single engine craft to move mail to inland airports after the flattop got mail from one of the flying boats, but that training needs to happen in the early '30s.
1939 is far too late
 
The upgrades increased the superstructure and forcing a torpedo bulge to be added protect against torpedo's and more guns....

That bulge cost the ship at least one knot as the hull was rated up to 30 knots maximum. Plans were drawn up to cover the torpedo bulge hull like Karlsruhe mod and add a transom stern to raise speed to 30 knots. Not going the 'bulge way' in the first place, would have saved a lot of problems.

the Admiral Scheer & Lutzow were modified that added 1.9 m? which is noted in some places as bow and others as stern?? (any good source?)

also the Karlsruhe was out for approx. 18 mos. which might be issue for PBs unless that was done in mid-1930's?

wonder the outcome of conversion to heavy cruisers and just scrap Admiral Hipper class? so 2x4 8" guns and replacement of 3.7" & 5.9" guns with 4.1" DP?
 
Convert into Aircraft Carriers. Do a quick and dirty job on Lutzow to make a training carrier, small navigation island, funnels ducted over the side, one small hangar one small lift and no catapult, say 10 aircraft capacity. The KM then romps round the Baltic learning the carrier ropes whilst Spee and Scheer are converted into a better design with Atlantic bow, bulged hull, Transom Stern, proper island, bigger hangar, lifts and catapult. They are going to be a little bit bigger than an Independence class carrier which carried about 32 but aircraft struck down Royal Navy fashion so an air group around about 20 to 24 aircraft. Bismark plus Prinz Eugen and a carrier Graf Spee would really ruin the sleep of the Admiralty.

To replace the raiding capabilities of them build more Merchant raiders they were better at it than a Pocket Battleship and a lot cheaper.

didn't they have problems below deck with space already? maybe a better idea to finish one or more of Hipper class as carriers as they started historically? an earlier conversion in their building if you will? rather than sacrifice a functioning warship

if you want a training carrier or test bed use one the Dithmarschen class supply ships (tankers) as they certainly had space in the design?
 
Not sure about the aircraft carriers idea for Germany at all. Their earliest start time is about 1935. Here's my reasoning;

Britain begins in 1916 and still has not figured it out by 1930. They have a working hypothesis of how by 1938, but let their fleet air arm decay so that their decade lead is gone by 1938. Japan and America are now slightly better at it, but let's see how those guys are doing after 11 years?

The US really begins in 1927 and holds almost 11 fleet problems to work the bugs out and still has not figured it out by 1942 (Midway).

The Japanese also beginning in 1927 have the Sempill treason helping them jumpstart off; but they really are in as much a state of confusion as the Americans (Midway again; 1942. I highly recommend "The Shattered Sword" by Parshall et al)

To expect the Germans to accomplish in 6 years (with a couple of converted ships) what three veteran navies took 12-20 years to perfect? Not gonna happen.
 
The German Navy needs to be able to either pin in place or occupy a disproportionate amount of enemy vessels to relieve the ASW campaign against the submarines with a better means of scouting for the submarines. Ideally LPMP aircraft would scout but that is not practicable in this era for Germany before fall of France. Until true battleships are built these are the fleet in being.

It might be better to devote more space on this long ranged "Cruiser" to seaplanes for scouting, even better if they can attack merchants themselves at distance or engage enemy LRMP aircraft. These "pocket BBs" would draw out the RN heavies to guard convoys and force more Cruisers to search them, if they are speedy they can just keep moving, using their aircraft to cover enough ocean to be useful in the role of communicating convoy locations to submarines for ambush, picking off single ships as targets of opportunity. Thus these ships need to look very scary but I would sacrifice armor for speed first and range next, get them provisioned for long distances and extended operations from home, devote more space to the aircraft, and if possible build a seaplane fighter/attack/scout at least good enough to shoot down the British scouts. My improvement would be to build them as is, ersatz battleships, but faster than anything afloat and looking like they will gun all before them when they really just scout out the convoys and avoid battle.
 

Md139115

Banned
Personally I'd up the tonnage to 14 or 15,000 tons to be spent on armor protection, lie through my teeth claiming it's only 10,000t, have her manage only 25kn on trials, and lots of staged accident. Nothing too serious, but generally make it seem like the propulsion is fucked. Lots of shaft vibrations, frequent breakdowns, higher than expected fuel consumption. Maybe a fire. Have it towed into port once or twice. Have her officially limited to 23kn for mechanical reasons.

Classify it as a Linienschiff like their WWI battleships, and generally make the British think my engineers are complete morons.

The officers, designers, and political appointees at the planning session all stare at you like you just grew a third eye. Finally, one rear admiral who rose up from the engine room stands up, face red, eye twitching, and says:

"You would dare sully the honor of GERMAN ENGINEERING?!"

You bolt out of the room and are chased by an angry mob while pistol shots fly past you.
 
The German Navy needs to be able to either pin in place or occupy a disproportionate amount of enemy vessels to relieve the ASW campaign against the submarines with a better means of scouting for the submarines. Ideally LPMP aircraft would scout but that is not practicable in this era for Germany before fall of France. Until true battleships are built these are the fleet in being.

It might be better to devote more space on this long ranged "Cruiser" to seaplanes for scouting, even better if they can attack merchants themselves at distance or engage enemy LRMP aircraft. These "pocket BBs" would draw out the RN heavies to guard convoys and force more Cruisers to search them, if they are speedy they can just keep moving, using their aircraft to cover enough ocean to be useful in the role of communicating convoy locations to submarines for ambush, picking off single ships as targets of opportunity. Thus these ships need to look very scary but I would sacrifice armor for speed first and range next, get them provisioned for long distances and extended operations from home, devote more space to the aircraft, and if possible build a seaplane fighter/attack/scout at least good enough to shoot down the British scouts. My improvement would be to build them as is, ersatz battleships, but faster than anything afloat and looking like they will gun all before them when they really just scout out the convoys and avoid battle.

One should look at the Ausonia. This was state of the art for the Kriegsmarine in 1918. As a seaplane tender it was not very good. Twenty years later one can see the same mistakes in the German aircraft carrier under construction.

Here in a nutshell (What the Americans learned the hard way) is a little of that learning curve.

1. Your aircraft carrier needs a takeoff run of at least 100 meters for a 2500 kilogram aircraft making 40 m/s. The aircraft carrier itself needs to be able to make 13 m/s (25 knots) for a sustained speed run of at least five minutes into the wind for a wind over deck assist to lift the plane. The Deutschland is not big enough or fast enough to handle post 1935 aircraft. And anything German like the American T2M (Something like the what the Germans proposed as a torpedo bomber; a Fiesler) is going to be blasted out of the sky by anything British flying at sea.

2. The seaplane problem is how do you crane back on after it catapults off? Various navies tried to learn how to do that one open ocean, but it turns out that one needs a lee shelter or very calm seas in practice as well as a stopped ship. In the Atlantic? With the British hunting for that plane and its base ship? In practice the Germans find seaplanes a liability.
 
German naval plans from pre Hitler years included an aircraft carrier and 6 new larger Panzerschiffe with third triple 11" gun turret turreted secondary 6" guns. Range was same as was speed. The cruiser fleet was to be expanded to a dozen ,with 6 new builds....presumably to escort the carrier, and raid under its direction?

Initial plans were for the three new Panzerschiffe plus the existing three PBS, but with the Hitler regime more money became available and KM plans were drawn up to expand to include either 6 heavy faster battle cruisers or 8 heavier faster PBS. Little mention is made of the aircraft carrier or the lighter cruisers... so everything is up for grabs, however Hitler crushed most KM expansion plans in 1934 insisting the fleet be mostly Baltic/North Sea fleet.

The next year however Raeder was able to convince Hitler that a modest surface fleet could be valuable against the French. From that point on all new planned warships had to be anti French designs , so everything changed into the useless fleet the KM ended up with in WW-II. Range and reliability didn't,t matter anymore , but speed was critical as was firepower.

So anything else is preferable. In 1930-1932 an aircraft carrier is planned, but by 1933-34 no mention along with new cruisers. In the following years [1935/36] one carrier [GZ] was ordered and laid down along with 3 heavy cruisers. No mention of the light cruisers until late 1930s .

So as alternative you can reasonably go in any direction from 1933-34 on. Having said that I wouldn't waste any new production on any new idea, but would be willing to decommission and modify surplus warships to find out.

There were discussions in the mid 1930s on possible integrated battle groups with carriers + battle cruisers & heavy cruisers plus flotilla of Zerstroers - in order to better employ the wolf packs.
 
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German naval plans from pre Hitler years included an aircraft carrier and 6 new larger Panzerschiffe with third triple 11" gun turret turreted secondary 6" guns. Range was same as was speed. The cruiser fleet was to be expanded to a dozen ,with 6 new builds....presumably to escort the carrier, and raid under its direction?

Rader had a hand in this. (My opinion only, YMMV.) He really did not understand the naval trends and professional naval thought too well. I think he to a certain extent was reading British naval thought and might have picked up on how the British were trying to integrate the carrier into traditional battle-line tactics as a scouting element, but missed out on how the British were also thinking about independent raiding with this unit.

Initial plans were for the three new Panzerschiffe plus the existing three PBS, but with the Hitler regime more money became available and KM plans were drawn up to expand to include either 6 heavy faster battle cruisers or 8 heavier faster PBS. Little mention is made of the aircraft carrier or the lighter cruisers... so everything is up for grabs, however Hitler crushed most KM expansion plans in 1934 insisting the fleet be mostly Baltic/North Sea fleet.

That tracks well, but does not explain Rader's continued insistence on the Z-plans.

The next year however Raeder was able to convince Hitler that a modest surface fleet could be valuable against the French. From that point on all new planned warships had to be anti French designs , so everything changed into the useless fleet the KM ended up with in WW-II. Range and reliability didn't,t matter anymore , but speed was critical as was firepower.

That is interesting. It explains so much about why the ships the KM receives after 1936 make no sense at all considering the likely naval war they should have planned to fight.

So anything else is preferable. In 1930-1932 an aircraft carrier is planned, but by 1933-34 no mention along with new cruisers. In the following years [1935/36] one carrier [GZ] was ordered and laid down along with 3 heavy cruisers. No mention of the light cruisers until late 1930s .

In effect, this is the kind of planning one might find in a dictatorship, where the flavor of the month drives the procurement decisions. This hurts a navy that has to have some kind of stable long-term planning, which is kind of why I think ATL mods to the pocket battleships would have been pointless. The PBS's were designed by the Weimar regime's planners. They had a vision of 19th century commerce raiders that makes a kind of cockamamie sense and designed surprisingly well to it. Quibbles about bulbous bows and transom sterns are nice speculations. Wishing for dual purpose armament is nice, but seriously? The best improvements the Germans could have implemented with this class of ship is crew training. The captains especially, as they are the ones who have the independent raider ship conundrum. That is not a criticism. The German of 1940 navy was schizophrenic in its expectations and desires from these captains. That it, the surface fleet, as a fleet, could be effective (Norway) when it had a clear purpose and mission is clear. Materially, for a small surface fleet, it pulls off some quite impressive early operations. Nothing wrong with its fighting spirit.
But that is not what the panzer ships were designed to do or what the captains assigned were supposed to do. These are hit and run singletons. The captains have to be bold timid like Raphael Semmes. The raider design adopted might have been a bit oversized for the mission. If I suggest technical improvements, it is in the margins, such as engines (diesels put a lot of noise into the water which British hydrophones can pick up at almost 30 km, whereas turbines only show up on sound gear about 5-7 km away.) Mechanical reliability uber alles. Shells and torpedoes need to work. At the Platte they didn't.

So as alternative you can reasonably go in any direction from 1933-34 on. Having said that I wouldn't waste any new production on any new idea, but would be willing to decommission and modify surplus warships to find out.

There were discussions in the mid 1930s on possible integrated battle groups with carriers + battle cruisers & heavy cruisers plus flotilla of Zerstroers - in order to better employ the wolf packs.

The battlegroup theory seems at first glance to resemble the task force concept, but the failure to take into account the need for a fleet trains or fleet logistics in general, shows that the thinking here is rudimentary. When even the British fail to understand this fundamental feature of carrier operations, it is not a harsh criticism of Rader. The Americans took a couple of years themselves to figure it out.
 
Regarding training, German captains tended to misidentify British ships. This caused RN vessels to escape destruction on at least two occasions.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Regarding training, German captains tended to misidentify British ships. This caused RN vessels to escape destruction on at least two occasions.
Part of that might be due to German Captains being under orders to preserve their ships at all costs. This would make them extremely cautious in ship identification. If you misidentify a heavy cruiser as a battleship, it's embarrassing. But you survive. But if you do it the other way around, you're dead.
 
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