AHC: improved Deutschland-class cruisers.

FBKampfer

Banned
So, how could the Deutschlands be improved, with the constraint that Germany was going to pursue surface warfare. So no canceling them for destroyers to support the U-boats, or capital ships. The goal is to improve the three Deutschland class panzerschiffe, Deutschland, Admiral Graf Spee, and Admiral Scheer, as combat ships, with the missions of commerce raiding, patrolling areas of German maritime interest, and engaging enemy surface combatants.

Additional rules are that they must use the 28cm C/28 guns (but not necessarily in the 2x 3 gun turrets fore and aft), and must remain officially tresty compliant (noting they were over weight OTL, and may be so here as well), so no early AGNA.

Dirty tricks, deciet, and lying are all highly encouraged.

Come on boys, wank the hell out of these boats.
 
IIRC they were pretty much at the limits of tech (e.g. welded construction) as it was, so if you require the 11" guns then almost any improvements are going to mean increased displacement, which will violate Versailles. The ships were already overweight (suposed to be ~10k tons, in practice ~12k) and any increase in size is going to be harder and harder to conceal from France and Britain.

If having to keep the 11" guns then with the benefit of hindsight use the ships to pioneer a dual purpose ~5" battery rather than the separate 4.1 and 5.9 inch guns. If allowed then my idea would be to scrap the 2x3 11" gun turrets and replace them with 3x3 8" and increase the class build count, instead of building the Hippers, which should get some efficiency benefits.
 
with the benefit of hindsight use the ships to pioneer a dual purpose ~5" battery rather than the separate 4.1 and 5.9 inch guns.

I agree, and I imagine that such a move would free up a bit of tonnage in the process which might mean a bit more armour or speed.
 
I agree, and I imagine that such a move would free up a bit of tonnage in the process which might mean a bit more armour or speed.

The Deutchland's didn't have 4.1s, at least as built not sure if any were added later. It'll benefit the follow up capital ships though.
 
Additional rules are that they must use the 28cm C/28 guns (but not necessarily in the 2x 3 gun turrets fore and aft), and must remain officially tresty compliant (noting they were over weight OTL, and may be so here as well), so no early AGNA.
This makes it very hard, what do you cut as you cant really just add without going way over weight?

With perfect hindsight if forced to make a surface warship I might suggest, 24cm main guns 3x3 this should kill any CA quickly and we are not worried about OTL fighting French pre dreadnoughts.
 
Minor improvement, instead of 8 single 15cm turrets, replace with 4 twins in a diamond type arrangement, with the two centerline superfiring over the 28cm turrets, save weight and give you 50% more 15cm firepower in each arc. Use the saved weight and space for more AA or improving armor protection to avoid the ship being crippled
 
Do this to save more tonnage, main guns forward in twin turrets, and make DP 5.9 guns for the rear. Allows better distribution of existing armor tonnage

richelieu-1.jpg

Radical, but the British started it with Nelsol and Rodsol
More radical is changing the hull

In Germany before war, a new hull device was developed, a wedge 'staukeil' could be built into the bottom of the transom stern that reduced stern drag remarkably. German destroyers were fitted with wedges, but these were not successful: they changed the running trim of the ship enough that they made the ship very wet and increased wave damage at some speeds.

After a few decades, they were revisited in the form of transom flaps, where that wedge angle could be adjusted to get that drag reduction at most speeds, while not having the adverse trim issues.

Next hull change is to a bulbous bow, this also reduces hull drag and reduces hull pitching. Germans first used this with the liners Bremen and Europa, launched in 1929

Both of these changes would reduce drag, that increases speed and reduces fuel consumption, and keep good handling characteristics
 

Md139115

Banned
Honestly, best way to wank the Deutschland class in my opinion would be to intentionally design it to be seriously upgraded at the start of hostilities.

Build the hull wider and slightly longer, and give her stronger engines. To avoid displacement complaints, have her only be completed with two twin 28cm turrets (or, "better," twin 20.3cm turrets), and say 6 or 8 8.8cm guns in casemate. Move back the bridge to just foward of the funnel, and create a forward superstructure deck to flesh out the resulting gap and not create any suspicion. Maybe even complete her without torpedo tubes.

In reality though, the hull has mountings for the torpedo tubes, and for 6 twin 15cm turrets, and a triple 28cm turret underneath the phony forward superstructure deck. And all of these weapons are currently sitting in a very ordinary, dilapidated-looking warehouse just off the Kiel shipyard, waiting to be installed within 72 hours (and yes, if she is completed with the 20.3s, they would be ripped out and replaced with triple 28s).

So, as far as the Allies are concerned, the Deutschlands would be probably illegal but frankly not that impressive undergunned cruisers, right up to the point where they pop out brandishing 9 28cm guns, 12 15cm guns, 6 to 8 8.8cm guns, and 8 torpedo tubes, all mounted on a hull that's now about 15,000 tons moving along at 26-28 knots.

I imagine furniture will be thrown and heads will roll in Whitehall
 
Build the hull wider and slightly longer
Unfortunately, thanks to the laws of physics (curse those Jewish scientists, says AH), the only way to have a longer, wider ship and maintain the same displacement is to have it ride higher in the water, which could lead to stability issues (and possibly also be a bit obvious).

My thought was triple (or maybe twin would be adequate) 5.9" in A and B turrets, for the primary function of sinking merchantmen, and triple 11" in X and Y turrets (with consequently more compact citadel), for the secondary function of firing at British warships as you run away.
 
instead of 8 single 15cm turrets, replace with 4 twins in a diamond type arrangement, with the two centerline superfiring over the 28cm turrets, save weight
The guns in OTL are light pedestal mounts so 4 twins turrets will weight more even if they save crew?
Do this to save more tonnage, main guns forward in twin turrets
I dont think this saves you anything 3x2 will be more than 2x3 and you need 6 guns min to be accurate at range (you really need 8).
triple 11" in X and Y turrets (with consequently more compact citadel)
I think all forward or stern main guns only saves weight if you are willing to protect them differently from engine rooms but the PBs had such light protection I don't think you save anything?
 
The Deutchland's didn't have 4.1s, at least as built not sure if any were added later. It'll benefit the follow up capital ships though.

6 x 105mm DP were added in 1938 & 40, bringing the secondary battery to 14 guns by WW2. I believe these 105mmm guns were in simple pedestal mounts.

Perhaps better 1938-40 conversions, would have been to replace the 8 x 150mm low angle guns with 128mm DP guns and maybe adding a couple more 128mm in simple DP pedestal mounts.
 
First thing first, design the engine room in a way such as to allow more powerful engines to be fitted. The Deutschlands were plenty fast when designed, but tech overtook their original capabilities. Being able to install more powerful or more efficient diesels would be very useful.

Secondly, have the idiot in charge of Wehrmacht communications not perform his radio weather tests on the day the Graf Zeppelin was spying on British radar. This will lead to the Germans realising the British are using centimetric radar and accelerate design of their own versions. Centimetric radar would provide a finer image, highly useful for ships supposed to operate individually.

Thirdly, dual-purpose weaponry. A lot of tonnage was wasted by having a combo of 150 and 105 guns. DP 128 mm in twin turrets were sufficient for sinking merchant ships. Secondary armament should be 8 twin 128 mm turrets instead of the 8 single 150, 6 single 105 and 3 single 88. Add some 37 mm for short range AA.

Lastly, are torpedoes really necessary on this type of ship? I've never liked torpedoes on anything other than destroyers and light cruisers.
 
Sorry guys, but the main limitation was top speed. They couldnt play with the later ships. I’d go nickel steel structural deck armor and hull and maybe cheat a little more on the depth, tonnage. Use the weight and space to add a combined diesel and steam propulsion.the steam could be High pressure cause it wouldn’t be used that much.
150 mm could be 2x2 superfiring 150mm DP guns ( they made them later and could retrofit).
And order the guns as the skc/34’s.
 
Sorry guys, but the main limitation was top speed. They couldnt play with the later ships. I’d go nickel steel structural deck armor and hull and maybe cheat a little more on the depth, tonnage. Use the weight and space to add a combined diesel and steam propulsion.the steam could be High pressure cause it wouldn’t be used that much.

German high pressure steam plants had terrible reliability, and having it be an 'on demand' unit would be worse, aside from taking up volume that the PBs were already short on.

No, the best way is clean up the hull dynamics. A transom stern might be good for a knot all by itself, and could have picked up another by having a larger bulbous bow than they had( it was very small by todays standards, or even later WWII ships)
 
German high pressure steam plants had terrible reliability, and having it be an 'on demand' unit would be worse, aside from taking up volume that the PBs were already short on.

No, the best way is clean up the hull dynamics. A transom stern might be good for a knot all by itself, and could have picked up another by having a larger bulbous bow than they had( it was very small by todays standards, or even later WWII ships)
Two knots, thats 28 on design and 30 actual? Seems High for the HP though?
And you need to get it to 30.
Actually, the choice would have been a more moderate pressure system at that time. How else TP get the speed that high
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Okay, so I'm seeing transom stern and a more prominent bulbous bow, figure these together kick her up to 30kn.

Give her 2x triple 203mm guns forwards, and an aft barbette covered by dummy superstructure work. Maybe a secondary funnel with some of the exhaust routed to it via ducting.

And stockpile twin 283mm turrets to uparm her later.

barbettes for secondary DP turrets covered by fake casemate mountings to be switched out later. Even mild sheet steel will suffice since they won't be meant for combat in the first place.

Ditch the torpedo tubes all together.


Personally I'd up the tonnage to 14 or 15,000 tons to be spent on armor protection, lie through my teeth claiming it's only 10,000t, have her manage only 25kn on trials, and lots of staged accident. Nothing too serious, but generally make it seem like the propulsion is fucked. Lots of shaft vibrations, frequent breakdowns, higher than expected fuel consumption. Maybe a fire. Have it towed into port once or twice. Have her officially limited to 23kn for mechanical reasons.

Classify it as a Linienschiff like their WWI battleships, and generally make the British think my engineers are complete morons.

So I have a 15,000t cruiser with 6 8"ers in an all forward armament scheme, and casemated "secondaries", say 150mm protection on the belt, and capable of 25kn if I wreck the engines doing it, that I'm calling a battleship, and always has a tow ship in its supporting flotilla.

When really I have a 30kn light battlecruiser, with 3 twin 11" guns, and 6" DP secondary armament in turrets.
 
I don't like all forward armament. Germans never managed to keep their foremost turret dry in heavy seas, even with Atlantic bows. And there's always the risk of knocking out all your main weaponry with a lucky hit.

The OTL config of one bow, one aft seems like the best one to me.
 
Top