IMHO an earlier alliance wouldn´t stop the loss of territories as both Italy and germany saw Hungary and Bulgaria as victims of Versailles not to mention that Romania would have to break their ties to the Czechs and Yugoslavs (one being the main arms supplier and the other a traditional ally)
AHC improve the Romanian military in WW 2
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
- Start date
IMHO an earlier alliance wouldn´t stop the loss of territories as both Italy and germany saw Hungary and Bulgaria as victims of Versailles not to mention that Romania would have to break their ties to the Czechs and Yugoslavs (one being the main arms supplier and the other a traditional ally)
And the poles....
(Yesy the good ole "central european clusterfuck of alliances and alliegations"
)And the poles....
(Yesy the good ole "central european clusterfuck of alliances and alliegations"
The Poles were friendly to the Romanians, but I don't know that there was an alliance. Was there?
Very well said. It seems to me then the best the Romanians can do is form strong economic ties with the Zcechs as early as possible and then after the German takeover in 38, try to make some sort of deal (oil for wpns.) with the Germans if not an alliance.And the poles....
(Yesy the good ole "central european clusterfuck of alliances and alliegations"
If you want a better Romanian showing in the Second War, you need a starting point in the First.
Romania exited the Great War a pauperised victor.
Due to a stunningly bad political decision, the National Bank Reserve, the Royal Treasury and a good deal many private treasuries were sent, in early summer 1917 in Russia, for safekeeping. The result was, with the benefit of hindsight, thoroughly predictable. Millions (in today's currency, tens of billions) of dollars-gold (equivalent) were lost to the Bolsheviks.
Due to the destruction of oil infrastructure by the British, Romania had few income sources after the war. And, because of the aforementioned lack of money to finance their reconstruction, a good part of the twenties consisted of Romania basically begging around to cash to rebuild its wells and refineries. This also impacted upon its ability to finance the armed forces' modernisation. Add to that the usual Byzantine-level politicking and corruption.
Romania exited the Great War a pauperised victor.
Due to a stunningly bad political decision, the National Bank Reserve, the Royal Treasury and a good deal many private treasuries were sent, in early summer 1917 in Russia, for safekeeping. The result was, with the benefit of hindsight, thoroughly predictable. Millions (in today's currency, tens of billions) of dollars-gold (equivalent) were lost to the Bolsheviks.
Due to the destruction of oil infrastructure by the British, Romania had few income sources after the war. And, because of the aforementioned lack of money to finance their reconstruction, a good part of the twenties consisted of Romania basically begging around to cash to rebuild its wells and refineries. This also impacted upon its ability to finance the armed forces' modernisation. Add to that the usual Byzantine-level politicking and corruption.
Just yesterday there was an article in newspapepers, saying some Romanian politicians are asking from Russia return of around 92 t of gold sent for safekeeping in 1917 to Russia. With that amount of money, they would be in much better position. Czechoslovakia's gold reserve in 1938 were about that amount.
So Slowpoke is right. Or what we can change is, that Czechoslovak legionaries at Siberia do not return most of the gold they captured, but bring Romanians 93 t bag to Europe and return it to their new allies. Gold is used for reconstruction and orders of equipment for army and industry in Czechoslovakia. This way both countries may have be in better situation in 30-ties.
So Slowpoke is right. Or what we can change is, that Czechoslovak legionaries at Siberia do not return most of the gold they captured, but bring Romanians 93 t bag to Europe and return it to their new allies. Gold is used for reconstruction and orders of equipment for army and industry in Czechoslovakia. This way both countries may have be in better situation in 30-ties.
BlondieBC
Banned
Since they lost most of the country to German/Bulgaria/A-H, exactly where did you plan to store the gold? Even if in the thin slice that remained unoccupied, it was largely Russian units there, so the gold is likely confiscated anyway. And why store the gold just 10's of miles behind the front lines. All you are doing here is having the CP collect the Gold after Russia collapses.
And on the oil fields, I guess we could have an ATL where they were just not destroyed due to some reason. But this is very hard to pull off with the attitudes of the day - you always destroy everything as you retreat.
And if Romania stays out of WW1, it could easily be a German win. And at a minimum, it butterflies away Hitler. The options you list are not workable.
Mutual defence treaty against USSR. Signed in 1921. In case of USSR attacking one the other state was obliged to declare war on USSR.
Thanks, that had slipped by me. I now see it was later enlarged to a general mutual defense treaty, but the Poles did not require it to kick in in 1939.
Nowhere. The various treasuries, personal collections etc. shouldn't have been piled in a bundle and carted off in the first place.
Huh? What? The Russians were conspicuous through their absence. In the whole of Moldova there was a single Russian army corps, who mostly occupied themselves with early-onset cirrhosis and harrasing the peasants' wives and daughters. That is, when they weren't busy deserting back to whatever village they came from.
It is easy to forget this, but the Germans of 1917 weren't the inveterate ransackers of 1939-1945. The Hague Convention (guaranteeing the protection of private assets, which incidentally also included the National Bank of Romania, back then a private institution modeled after the Federal Reserve) was still adhered to.
Except it wasn't Romanians who blew the shit out of them, but rather the British. Get them out of the picture in some way or another, and the oil infrastructure remains.
BlondieBC
Banned
Your facts are off. The Germans in WW1 were world class looters. The record in Belgium is well document. And you can read Ludendorff for a source on the materials looting in Poland. The Germans were quite proud of their ability to extract resources from conquered lands for the war effort. There is a 100% chance they go for the gold. And I just double checked, looks like 1 million Russian soldiers on the Romanian front by 1917. Initially it was small, but Russia had to send multiple full armies down there. And the collecting of personal gold items was not uncommon in WW1. All powers had financial issues. Except virtually every power in the war used a scorched earth policy. And the British acted with Romanian acceptance.
This probably wouldn't be a major factor except very early in the war, but maybe more of the Polish Army escapes to Romania, which confiscates their weapons. My understanding is that the Germans later sold Romania some Polish equipment in exchange for oil, so presumably the additional Polish stuff wouldn't make Romanian logistics much more complicated than it already was.
Of course by Stalingrad most of the Polish stuff would be totally obsolete.
Of course by Stalingrad most of the Polish stuff would be totally obsolete.
sharlin
Banned
Without a massive POD you'll not be able to do much to make the Romanians more effective, they fought well with what they had but they needed better leaders, better training for NCOs and Officers, more weapons, more tanks, more aircraft. Something they'd not be able to do without going back at least a few decades to fix.
Sorry, but I don't buy it. I saw that number on the net, but can't readily find evidence for it (besides, official Russian period sources are bunk; numbers were routinely forged). The Imperial Army's pool, in case of a perfectly organised general mobilisation was around 5 million. Obviously, that never happened, so the actual pool was lower. By 1917, after a string of defeats, and with desertion rampant through the ranks, I strongly believe that real numbers hovered around 4 million. With these in mind, I heavily doubt that the Empire would blob 25+% of their forces in Moldova. I've a feeling that 1 million number refers to the full complement of combined armies (in which case the disparity in forces was nowhere near as large), and that at some point there was a misunderstanding regarding what it stood for.
Bitterly ironically, Romania's postwar fortunes would've been better had the Germans confiscated its treasury. As one of the victors, it could've demanded its return, and would've most likely gotten far more of it than it did from the Soviets (bubkes).
The reason why I really don't understand the whole "let's pile up all our shit in a big mound" mentality is that it is thoroughly un-Romanian. The time-honoured practice was, from early Middle Ages, to scatter one's valuables in many secluded caches, so that if a pillager may find some of them, one would at least remain with something (notably, this is what the gov't did the second time around; sadly, given that war's outcome, it didn't really matter in the end: the Soviets came and said "Thanks for the free moola, pendejos!").
Lastly, this is an AHC for a particular subject. That is to say, bringing forth arguments about why it couldn't, without presenting an alternative about how it could is, frankly, quite unconstructive.
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That was very well said. There's nothing wrong with being the voice of reason or pointing out some thing that is historically wrong (I get things wrong a lot, I'm a history buff not a history expert) but some people just seem to trash any what if scenario. Having said that though I'd have to say that every one on this thread has been pretty constructive with their suggestions or at pointing out little known historical facts. It's been an interesting and enlightening thread so far.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Hmmm so in this case the Romanian army enters into WW 1 at a similar time to OTL.
The Romanian army promptly collapses under the weight of the German war machine and the majority of the gold reserves, oil well are captured intact.
For the sake of national pride a sliver of Romania remains independent ala Belgium in WW1. Post WW 1 Romania has a greater amount of economic resources and a brutal illustration of the disparity in quantity and quality between being a good second string player and playing first grade.
After seeing one of their traditional benefactors Tsarist Russia replaced with a threat, an increased reliance on domestic industry is created. Now as I like the contributions on another thread, would it be possible that Romania could have a sloped armoured Pz IV?
Would it be beneficial if any former Tsarist army officers stayed in Romania and taught at their military academy?
BTW this has been one of the better threads regarding contributions that I have seen on the site.
The Romanian army promptly collapses under the weight of the German war machine and the majority of the gold reserves, oil well are captured intact.
For the sake of national pride a sliver of Romania remains independent ala Belgium in WW1. Post WW 1 Romania has a greater amount of economic resources and a brutal illustration of the disparity in quantity and quality between being a good second string player and playing first grade.
After seeing one of their traditional benefactors Tsarist Russia replaced with a threat, an increased reliance on domestic industry is created. Now as I like the contributions on another thread, would it be possible that Romania could have a sloped armoured Pz IV?
Would it be beneficial if any former Tsarist army officers stayed in Romania and taught at their military academy?
BTW this has been one of the better threads regarding contributions that I have seen on the site.
I'm sorry, but, WHAT?!?
Why do you think Romania was (up until around 1913, IIRC) in an alliance with Germany? The Russian Empire was viewed by many as Romania's main enemy, due to pan-Slavist imperialism directed towards Bulgaria and the Balkans.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
This I didn't know... South East Asia is more my kettle of fish. With this in mind what was the relations with Germany like post WW I?
Deleted my previous message due to reading fail.
Post WWI, relations were a bit meh, though Romania's new Saxon/Swabian minority (acquired through union with Transylvania) didn't mind Romanian rule as much as the Magyars did. Romania kept economic ties with Germany, but the drift towards France and the appearance of the Nazi party eventually caused a falling out.
Post WWI, relations were a bit meh, though Romania's new Saxon/Swabian minority (acquired through union with Transylvania) didn't mind Romanian rule as much as the Magyars did. Romania kept economic ties with Germany, but the drift towards France and the appearance of the Nazi party eventually caused a falling out.