AHC: Improve the Polish performance in 1939

Poland had to export weapons to gain money to buy more weapons for themselves, problem lies less in production capabilities and more in lack of funds
so we return on the necessity of a French loan which could be used like you said "in producing military equipment in Poland".
 

Deleted member 1487

Somebody mentioned French credit. Part of it was spend on industrializing Poland, the rest on buying French equipment. But iirc French factories were already producing full time for French military, so not much came out of it. Perhaps it could be negotiated to use these funds to produce equipment in Polish factories.
I mentioned it as a potential option for the French to strengthen Poland, did they actually do it IOTL? I know Germany actually granted industrial credits to Poland in 1938, but never fulfilled them. Since the 120mm mortar system by Brandt was actually only built by Finland as far as I know (the French army never adopted the design and Brandt licensed it to Finland) I wonder if they gave them money to buy from Finland if that would work (Finland some some to Sweden in 1941 IIRC).
 
PZLP11MS.png


Just adding some color, a PZL P.11 with suggested H-S 12Y engine, in -45 form with Polish supercharger, and a P.11 given the Rumanian treatment with enclosed cockpit, low cantilever wing, and retractable gear. Couldabeen.
 
With the export credit, obtained from France in 1936, Poland has tried to buy the Somua S 35 but it has failed (the priority was given to the French army). After they tried to buy the Renault D2 and even a licence production but it has failed also until the early of 1939. And finally, in April 1939, they had to buy a hundred R35 tanks as an emergency measure (only 50 were delivered).
 
Rather than dick around with 37 or 47mm AT guns, they need to modernize all their M1897 guns,
75mm_wz97_fot879.jpg

to this
art75mm_13.jpg

Takes care of every Panzers for years to come, plus is a great field gun.
Just add a tracked prime mover for portee use, or even 4WD
UK99%20K5%20Portee.jpg
 
With the export credit, obtained from France in 1936, Poland has tried to buy the Somua S 35 but it has failed (the priority was given to the French army). After they tried to buy the Renault D2 and even a licence production but it has failed also until the early of 1939. And finally, in April 1939, they had to buy a hundred R35 tanks as an emergency measure (only 50 were delivered).
The R35 wasn't a great tank either: its 37mm gun was the same that Renault FT17 used in WW1! Low velocity and basically obsolete: probably enough to deal with AFV and Panzer I but I have doubts for Panzer II. If those guns were replaced by 37mm guns with a longer barrel (either a French one or the 37mm bofors) then those tanks could begin to be a real threat.

Rather than dick around with 37 or 47mm AT guns, they need to modernize all their M1897 guns,
75mm_wz97_fot879.jpg

to this
art75mm_13.jpg

Takes care of every Panzers for years to come, plus is a great field gun.
Just add a tracked prime mover for portee use, or even 4WD
UK99%20K5%20Portee.jpg
Great idea but the main thought of this thread is that Poland as a relatively tiny budget and must choose affordable solutions to improve its military. I know that the French 75mm gun was far from obsolete in 1940 when upgraded (plus it was very versatile) but could Poland pay the modernization of ALL their guns? It's like with the TKS tankettes: the idea to convert them with a 20mm gun is really good on paper but again it costs time and money: that's why only 24 tankettes were upgraded OTL (and those tankettes fared well against Panzer II: basically it was the hetzer of 1939: low profile, discreet, great for ambushes).
 
Great idea but the main thought of this thread is that Poland as a relatively tiny budget and must choose affordable solutions to improve its military. I know that the French 75mm gun was far from obsolete in 1940 when upgraded (plus it was very versatile) but could Poland pay the modernization of ALL their guns? It's like with the TKS tankettes: the idea to convert them with a 20mm gun is really good on paper but again it costs time and money: that's why only 24 tankettes were upgraded OTL (and those tankettes fared well against Panzer II: basically it was the hetzer of 1939: low profile, discreet, great for ambushes).

Modernization of sights and wheels is far cheaper than buying any new cannon.

Replacing horses with trucks is also a money saver in the short run, let alone long run.

Making them all self propelled is even better, and a gunshield to protect the crew is just icing on top
Deacon2.jpg

for shoot and scoot
 
There are wheeled carriages (the French used them IIRC, probably others) that are very low, use four wheels, and are used to tow the M1897 with tractors. I'll try and find the name of these in my files or on AHF. ANY RR workshop in Poland can knock these up quickly with standardized plans. Another item that is necessary is the firing platform for field guns, most often seen in use photos by the Brit 25 pdr. This allows all around travers of the gun, quite quickly. Again, I cannot recall its name. IMO this is ALL the Poles should go for. Each is useful in itself, and when combined gives a useful DP gun for little cost. Split trails and pneumatic carriage will have to wait for another day. IF there is some small amount of money in the R+D budget, use it to improve the performance of the rounds, either as AP or some other improvement.
 
Another idea is to improve Poland's RR system. They, like most nations at that time, are very dependent upon it. While they already have armored trains, these are of less utility than AA guns on regular trains. Additional AA batteries of all calibers, or even mixed calibers, would be extremely useful in keeping trains safe from aerial attack, allowing troops and supplies to reach where they are needed. Such batteries could also be parked on sidings to act as protection for other assets.

Whilst I'm on a caffeine powered roll, co-operate more with Imperial Japan. Yes, I know they were despicable rat fuck bastards (there is far too little opprobrium heaped upon their actions leading up to WWII, but that's for another thread) BUT, they made some fine aircraft, and engines. If any of you are suitably knowledgeable of aircraft of that time (I am far too much of an amateur to add anything substantive to such a thread) and would care to see what can be made of the two countries combined efforts, it could prove quite interesting.
 

Deleted member 1487

Another idea is to improve Poland's RR system. They, like most nations at that time, are very dependent upon it. While they already have armored trains, these are of less utility than AA guns on regular trains. Additional AA batteries of all calibers, or even mixed calibers, would be extremely useful in keeping trains safe from aerial attack, allowing troops and supplies to reach where they are needed. Such batteries could also be parked on sidings to act as protection for other assets.
That's expensive to upgrade and was already quite good in the west due to being inherited from the Germans, while the lack of development in the East actually aided defense against the Russians. More AAA is always good for rail junctions...but how to avoid that without getting into zero sum losses in other areas of the military budget?
 
Apologies on my part. That was poorly worded! What I meant by improve was adding AA guns to rolling stock to improve the AA defense of trains in general. All these ideas we've bandied about will of course cost something, which ones the Poles would choose, I've no idea. Would it be worthwhile to improve the survivability of trains in dangerous areas in general, compared to doing something else? Don't know. But its enjoyable to talk about!:)
 
Curtailing the production of the PZL.23 1-engined bomber from 250 to, say 100, plus not producing 54 of the PZL.43 bombers will save plenty of money. Export the low-wing monoplane fighters in small batches to get some money, it will also make them cheaper for the Polish AF.
 
Their R35 delivery has been mentioned earlier, having only been partially completed, but would it be far fetched for them to acquire the entire order? I know the machines were not exceptional, but it would be better than nothing at all.

I'd again like to bring up the 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade, because it was a model of what Polish motorized units might look like given the time to get all the horses out of their network. Here's the OOB, from wiki:

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 2.07.48 PM.png
 
1. make actual command that can cooperate with officers and not makes orders at unit level when its too late
2. make Rydz-Śmigły President and not Marshall - he was better politician and demagogue rather than person who could personally command entire Polish Army

or just scrap that and give Danzig to Germans, build exteritorial highway through corridor and fight alongside Germans against Soviets. Polish Army was preparing entire 20 years for fight with Red Army which was band of drunk men sometimes even without uniforms. Look at fights in 39 and against Finland.

@robin banks
As i said before Poland was preparing to fight with Soviets rather than Germans all that time and Cavalry in fields of Ukraine is the thing you need to defeat Soviets. But yes against Germany you need to have motorized units.
 
. While they already have armored trains, these are of less utility than AA guns on regular trains. Additional AA batteries of all calibers, or even mixed calibers, would be extremely useful in keeping trains safe from aerial attack, allowing troops and supplies to reach where they are needed. Such batteries could also be parked on sidings to act as protection for other assets.
Good idea if it remain moderately expensive and can improve polish logistics during the first crucial days of the campaign where time is the essence. More AA batteries on armoured trains could also be interesting if I may. Those trains were indeed very vulnerable to stukas but constituted a real threat to German Panzers as well.

Curtailing the production of the PZL.23 1-engined bomber from 250 to, say 100, plus not producing 54 of the PZL.43 bombers will save plenty of money. Export the low-wing monoplane fighters in small batches to get some money, it will also make them cheaper for the Polish AF.
I'm more for a simplification of the PZL 23 bomber than a curtailing of its production: no third crewmember and no MG in underbelly station. Otherwise, a light bomber can always be useful IMHO. A simplified and lighter bomber with the same engine would be faster btw, thus undoing one of the PZL 23's flaws.

Their R35 delivery has been mentioned earlier, having only been partially completed, but would it be far fetched for them to acquire the entire order? I know the machines were not exceptional, but it would be better than nothing at all.

I'd again like to bring up the 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade, because it was a model of what Polish motorized units might look like given the time to get all the horses out of their network. Here's the OOB, from wiki:

View attachment 348354
I think the Poles received the upgraded version of the R35 which was quite decent for 1939. And I share your opinion about the Polish 10th Brigade. For me, more brigades should have been converted to 2 motorized cavalry regiments and one tank battalion. The problem is: how to get these tanks? 7TP is good but only 145 were produced (I'm including the 9TP prototypes): producing more is technically doable but again: where to find the money for this. And again we're returning to the vital need of a French loan. Poland could also buy foreign machines. OTL there were French R35 et British Vickers but one could think that with better relationship with Czechoslovakia, Poland could buy Czech LT35. And who knows, when March 1939 arrives and if Poland has become some kind of friend of the Czechs, perhaps some LT38 would be send to Poland: more tanks to Poland and less machines for Germany to equip its Light Divisions.

1. make actual command that can cooperate with officers and not makes orders at unit level when its too late
2. make Rydz-Śmigły President and not Marshall - he was better politician and demagogue rather than person who could personally command entire Polish Army

or just scrap that and give Danzig to Germans, build exteritorial highway through corridor and fight alongside Germans against Soviets. Polish Army was preparing entire 20 years for fight with Red Army which was band of drunk men sometimes even without uniforms. Look at fights in 39 and against Finland.

@robin banks
As i said before Poland was preparing to fight with Soviets rather than Germans all that time and Cavalry in fields of Ukraine is the thing you need to defeat Soviets. But yes against Germany you need to have motorized units.
Even with Jozef Beck at the head of Polish Diplomacy, an alliance with Germany would not happen IMHO.
Your idea of Rydz getting the presidency is quite original and interesting. But who within the Polish Army would be competent enough to lead the Army in 1939? Plus that man would need Rydz's total trust and support.
 
or just scrap that and give Danzig to Germans, build exteritorial highway through corridor and fight alongside Germans against Soviets.

Save that the Germans wouldn't stop there with their demands. When the Czechoslovakians accepted the first demands, the Germans came back for more. In the Polish case, there are German minorities in some places of Pomerania and Silesia, and Hitler will want those areas. Granted, Goering hinted, in talks with the Polish authorities, that they'd be compensated in the East. But the Polish decision-makers thought that that wouldn't be enough.
Regardless of any future compensation at the expense of the Soviet Union, if a Polish government did do what you suggest, and what would follow, i.e. yield on Danzig, the highway, and then bits of Silesia and Pomerania, you'd have street fighting in Warsaw, political assassinations, and a coup by right-wing officers. It's a Yugoslavian situation, when the rulers tried to go Axis.
 
Did Hitler want anything from Soviets?
It would be the same as Ribentrop Molotov but with Poles. Poland was very important ally for Hitler but we didnt want to ally with satan. In fact we had to do it to kill a devil. And riots will be made by socialists and easy to destroy. Will cease after France is defeated by Germans.

New Marshall would be any Pilsudski camp general. I think about Kutrzeba or Anders.
 
Maybe i used a wrong analogy but my point is that Poland wouldn't be attacked by Germany at least before they deal with Soviets, because they will be important ally. It will give Eastern Europe a peace for about 2 years and Poland a time to modernize its army.
 
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