AHC: Improve the Polish performance in 1939

Not just because Slovakia is German puppet but because of mistakes of Polish foreign policy in 1938. There was very strong pro Polish wing in Hlinka's Party, however with Polish occupation of parts of Kysuce, Orava and Spis it was basically death and Bratislava was able if not to gain support (war against Poland wasn't very popular) at least present the war against Poland as liberation war.
If we can have changes as far in the past as 1920, then the best option would be resolving the quarrels with Czechoslovakia regarding Cieszyn/Tesin and other bits and pieces, and forming alliance between those two states (plus Romania and Jugoslavia) once Hitlers starts rearming Germany.
 
If we can have changes as far in the past as 1920, then the best option would be resolving the quarrels with Czechoslovakia regarding Cieszyn/Tesin and other bits and pieces, and forming alliance between those two states (plus Romania and Jugoslavia) once Hitlers starts rearming Germany.
Definitely! Then again, easier said than done. Perhaps rather than resolving the problem fudge the timeline so that the Czech takeover of Cieszyn either doesn't happen at all or happens without the context of the imminent showdown with the Soviets.
 
If we can have changes as far in the past as 1920, then the best option would be resolving the quarrels with Czechoslovakia regarding Cieszyn/Tesin and other bits and pieces, and forming alliance between those two states (plus Romania and Jugoslavia) once Hitlers starts rearming Germany.
Yep. That would be best. Czechoslovak army was pushing for it at one time and even requested to reach kind of agreement to eliminate Poland as possible threat but I guess there was not political will on both sides to reach compromise which would somehow satisfied everybody. Or both sides wanted everything.
 
To improve their performance is not so difficult, Łódź Army would need to be positioned better. Juliusz Rómmel put them way too close to the border in a disadvantageous position, and they were flanked and cut off.

If we're to talk equipment, we could always refer to the Polish 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade, a fully modern unit with tanks, tankettes, and proper motorization. Sure, the tankettes weren't great, but if you can get the 20mm Nkm wz.38 FK fitted to them they have reasonable AT capability and there's some 500+ figure built to take advantage of. There were also cannon-armed TD variants of the TKS that could be considered, the TKD and TKS-D, that could make the Panzer attrition rates worse.

Of course, the PZL-37 Łos was really good, and you could always pull some magic and have the PZL-50 or some other modern interceptor in service in time to see action.
 

Deleted member 1487

To improve their performance is not so difficult, Łódź Army would need to be positioned better. Juliusz Rómmel put them way too close to the border in a disadvantageous position, and they were flanked and cut off.
Wasn't that in part to actually encourage the Germans to try and flank them so their counterattack force could destroy the German flankers?
 
Wasn't that in part to actually encourage the Germans to try and flank them so their counterattack force could destroy the German flankers?

My understanding of their role was to be a barrier between Ponzań and Krakow to prevent either from being flanked, and allow for a more stable front. Even then, were that the case, Rómmel's location didn't have any good natural defense locations to be taken advantage of. To my knowledge, though, they were meant to fill the gap between the main armies rather than tempt the Germans into risky flanking maneuvers, and it was just a case of bad planning.
 
Place explosives under the bridges.
Lastly, delay the Soviets. Talk to Stalin, make overtures of addressing USSR issues with Poland.... anything that can slow down the Soviet advance until the German one is a mess.
So hampering German advances by any means necessary. It's true that every bridge destroyed means hours and in some case a couple of days where the Germans aren't advancing, thus giving precious time to the Poles to gather ressources to carry on the struggle.

Of course if we really wanted to get far out we could mine the Polish-Japanese connection. Apparently they shared a lot of intel due to their mutual enemy, the USSR. Adopting the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka round/rifle/LMG and their Type 89 Grenade discharger while licensing the above would serve them VERY well.
Add to that more mortars and they could have tactically outperformed the Germans, who were actually pretty clumsy in their conduct of the war in 1939; the Polish army man for man was better trained than the newly expanded German army and had it not been for weight of numbers and firepower plus lack of Polish mobilization the Germans would likely have gotten a bloody nose and delayed victory.

If say the French had given them defense credit and they used them to buy French 120mm Brandt Mortars to make up for lack of artillery, they could have countered the German infantry howitzers, which from what I've read was a major component of tactical firepower that the Poles were not able to respond in kind to.

So the famous "knee mortar" for Polish Infantry and the creation of heavy mortar battalions like in Finnish Army. A good idea to complete Polish Infantry Armament in a relatively cheap way.



My understanding of their role was to be a barrier between Ponzań and Krakow to prevent either from being flanked, and allow for a more stable front. Even then, were that the case, Rómmel's location didn't have any good natural defense locations to be taken advantage of. To my knowledge, though, they were meant to fill the gap between the main armies rather than tempt the Germans into risky flanking maneuvers, and it was just a case of bad planning.
So relocating the Lodz Army further East in order to create a shortened and more cohesive frontline
 
Ideas propose
Allow me to summarize everything we have said so far in order to improve the Polish performance in 1939 with minor and plausible PODs which can be easily implemented for a Polish government whose funds and hinsight remain limited:

So Hispano-Suiza getting a little less greedy and a simplified PZL 23 in order to help Polish Air Force in a relatively cheap way (better fighters with better engines and slighly more light bombers).


Better AT capacities. more 37mm bofors and more AT rifles allocated to each units. Again a plausible solution and not the costliest one.


More support from others countries. Perhaps a deal with USSR in order to make them wait. The longer Stalin waits, the longer the Germans are bled in Poland. Securing Slovakian neutrality with a minor POD in the 1920 which could secure decent relationship with Czechoslovakia and later Slovakia if 1938 then March 1939 happen. If possible, trying to turn Romania into a full ally when war comes in order to get troops and perhaps Entente forces trying to create another front against Germany with limited ressources (a few divisions and air assets in order to reinforce Romania, basically a Caparthian version of Norway).

Hampering German advances by any means necessary, notably by destroying every bridge in order to get precious hours to allowing the Poles to gather ressources to carry on the struggle.

Relocating the Lodz Army further East in order to create a shortened and more cohesive frontline.

Developping Polish Infantry firepower by perhaps getting a viable semi-auto rifle, producing a licensed Japanese "knee mortar" and creating heavy mortar battalions like in Finnish Army. A good idea to complete Polish Infantry Armament in a relatively cheap way IMHO.
 

Deleted member 1487

Allow me to summarize everything we have said so far in order to improve the Polish performance in 1939 with minor and plausible PODs which can be easily implemented for a Polish government whose funds and hinsight remain limited:

So Hispano-Suiza getting a little less greedy and a simplified PZL 23 in order to help Polish Air Force in a relatively cheap way (better fighters with better engines and slighly more light bombers).


Better AT capacities. more 37mm bofors and more AT rifles allocated to each units. Again a plausible solution and not the costliest one.


More support from others countries. Perhaps a deal with USSR in order to make them wait. The longer Stalin waits, the longer the Germans are bled in Poland. Securing Slovakian neutrality with a minor POD in the 1920 which could secure decent relationship with Czechoslovakia and later Slovakia if 1938 then March 1939 happen. If possible, trying to turn Romania into a full ally when war comes in order to get troops and perhaps Entente forces trying to create another front against Germany with limited ressources (a few divisions and air assets in order to reinforce Romania, basically a Caparthian version of Norway).

Hampering German advances by any means necessary, notably by destroying every bridge in order to get precious hours to allowing the Poles to gather ressources to carry on the struggle.

Relocating the Lodz Army further East in order to create a shortened and more cohesive frontline.

Developping Polish Infantry firepower by perhaps getting a viable semi-auto rifle, producing a licensed Japanese "knee mortar" and creating heavy mortar battalions like in Finnish Army. A good idea to complete Polish Infantry Armament in a relatively cheap way IMHO.
Part of the problem with getting more and better equipment is expense. Poland had a very limited budget, so things like mobilizing fully and getting better alliances and cheaper equipment that isn't much worse than what they had IOTL is the best options within reach.
 
Part of the problem with getting more and better equipment is expense. Poland had a very limited budget, so things like mobilizing fully and getting better alliances and cheaper equipment that isn't much worse than what they had IOTL is the best options within reach.
We agree on this. But I think we can without much risk granting a few more dozen fighters and tanks. Only 4 heavy mortars per Division could already be used in useful counter-battery fire. We're not talking about creating 4 brand new Armored Divisions and some things nice and expensive.
 

Deleted member 1487

We agree on this. But I think we can without much risk granting a few more dozen fighters and tanks. Only 4 heavy mortars per Division could already be used in useful counter-battery fire. We're not talking about creating 4 brand new Armored Divisions and some things nice and expensive.
Again where is it coming from in the OTL budget?
 

Deleted member 1487

you mean how much this improvements would cost to the Poles and how they could finance them without ruining themselves?
Yes given that they suffered from the Great Depression in the 1930s too and were spending on infrastructure and industry at the same time, as well as dealing with civil unrest. Remember too that Germany after Hitler rose to power became Poland's #1 trading partner, which didn't always work in her favor, especially when he turned on Poland in Spring 1939. There is a 'less bad' economic period from 1934-38 really to work with to build up the army pre-war. By 1939 German trade sanctions hurt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic#Economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Year_Plan_(Poland)

Honestly I would like to see a TL about the 2nd Republic without facing WW2, say with a Hitler dies post-Munich scenario.
 
Yes given that they suffered from the Great Depression in the 1930s too and were spending on infrastructure and industry at the same time, as well as dealing with civil unrest. Remember too that Germany after Hitler rose to power became Poland's #1 trading partner, which didn't always work in her favor, especially when he turned on Poland in Spring 1939. There is a 'less bad' economic period from 1934-38 really to work with to build up the army pre-war. By 1939 German trade sanctions hurt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic#Economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Year_Plan_(Poland)

Honestly I would like to see a TL about the 2nd Republic without facing WW2, say with a Hitler dies post-Munich scenario.
From what I undestand, between 1933 and 1939, Poland produced around 600 fighters but sold nearly 200 of these to others nations (mainly Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey). So if Poland decides to not export these fighters and to concentrate on the PZL 24 instead of the PZL 11, Poland can have around 500 relatively modern fighters for September 1939 without losing much money. And to have more AT guns and rifles and heavy mortars, an earlier French loan (let's say in 1936) could finance them. With this money, you could also produce more tanks (250 instead of 150) and buy others (perhaps 100 35T from Czechoslovakia before 1938, thanks to better relationship as said above) and buy planes (100 AVIA fighters could do the trick).
All these improvements, combined with well-trained polish troops (like you justly said), a slightly better battleplan (better located ARMY LODZ, following Weygand's advice to abandon the Poznan salient) could already partially turn the blitzkrieg into a war of attrition, at least for several weeks. The consequences of these could be huge: Poland already buys time but then so is France and Britain. A bled Germany would need more time to recover even if Poland still falls. And considering the Entente was rearming at a frantic pace, it could be enough to defeat Germany in the West OR at least weaken them badly. But honestly I'm just announcing possibilities here and I could wrong.
Me too, I would really like to read a TL on Poland in 1939. There was one about the battle of Bzura. Really interesting stuff but sadly the author stopped after a few updates.
 
So hampering German advances by any means necessary. It's true that every bridge destroyed means hours and in some case a couple of days where the Germans aren't advancing, thus giving precious time to the Poles to gather ressources to carry on the struggle.
September 1939 was unusually dry and water levels very low, thus rivers didn't provide serious obstacle
 
Again where is it coming from in the OTL budget?
Somebody mentioned French credit. Part of it was spend on industrializing Poland, the rest on buying French equipment. But iirc French factories were already producing full time for French military, so not much came out of it. Perhaps it could be negotiated to use these funds to produce equipment in Polish factories.
 
From what I undestand, between 1933 and 1939, Poland produced around 600 fighters but sold nearly 200 of these to others nations (mainly Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey). So if Poland decides to not export these fighters and to concentrate on the PZL 24 instead of the PZL 11, Poland can have around 500 relatively modern fighters for September 1939 without losing much money. And to have more AT guns and rifles and heavy mortars, an earlier French loan (let's say in 1936) could finance them. With this money, you could also produce more tanks (250 instead of 150) and buy others (perhaps 100 35T from Czechoslovakia before 1938, thanks to better relationship as said above) and buy planes (100 AVIA fighters could do the trick).
All these improvements, combined with well-trained polish troops (like you justly said), a slightly better battleplan (better located ARMY LODZ, following Weygand's advice to abandon the Poznan salient) could already partially turn the blitzkrieg into a war of attrition, at least for several weeks. The consequences of these could be huge: Poland already buys time but then so is France and Britain. A bled Germany would need more time to recover even if Poland still falls. And considering the Entente was rearming at a frantic pace, it could be enough to defeat Germany in the West OR at least weaken them badly. But honestly I'm just announcing possibilities here and I could wrong.
Me too, I would really like to read a TL on Poland in 1939. There was one about the battle of Bzura. Really interesting stuff but sadly the author stopped after a few updates.
Poland had to export weapons to gain money to buy more weapons for themselves, problem lies less in production capabilities and more in lack of funds
 
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