AHC: Improve the Polish performance in 1939

I've read about that but never found hard evidence. In any case, sure, bombing Berlin is going to enrage Parisians and the French government. So what. We're talking about the most that might be done, here, not what would have been likely taking into account misplaced political cautiousness.

I've looked for similar things myself. Best that could be found are Gamelins remarks or memos that he wished to avoid a bombing war. Vague stuff.
 
I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am, every time I see how much importance is given to rivet-counting. Seriously, some MG with a slightly different mechanism or rate of fire, or some slightly more powerful aircraft engine is going to make a significant difference?

The obvious trump card would be accepting a Polish-French-British-Soviet alliance. With our hindsight, even if the Soviet troops moved in and didn't, after the German defeat, relinquish some border region in the East, that doesn't hold a candle to what happened to Poland historically. But with the knowledge decision makers had at the time, this borders ASB territory.

Barring that, here you go:
1. Drop the destroyers. However small, they serve no purpose. Build a couple more submarines instead, a handful of fast torpedo boats, and use the balance for the Wojsko Polskie.
2. Reduce the number of bombers. No need to spend more on more or better fighters; the Lotnictwo Wojskowe is a wasting asset anyway and it did, in OTL, cause enough attrition to the Luftwaffe. That's the max one can expect in any case.
3. Cut down the number of cavalry brigades. Really not needed. Four should suffice.
4. With all the money thus spared, organize first two armored brigades, with just about any kind of light tank in the tank battalion, provided it comes with a 37mm gun at least. Truck-mounted infantry, motorized artillery a bit more abundant than in OTL, AA battery. With the balance, improve signals and communications, then motorize a couple of infantry divisions, and if possible a bit of the artillery in general. If you still have money, add AA batteries (even light caliber ones are OK), and more standard AT batteries (no need to change guns, just add numbers, ammunition, motorization). If you can still spare something, buy mines. Any spare change, upgrade all the tankettes to a 20mm gun.
5. Don't wait to mobilize. And put everything West save the ON, if the Soviets come in you're toast anyway, your best bet is to delay the Germans enough to have the French involved and Stalin doubting whether the time has come.
6. Fight only delaying actions in Pomerania initially, don't deploy too far forward. This is costly, politically, but necessary.
7. Use the ON and reserve units that aren't on the Eastern border to attack Prussia on multiple sides. It doesn't matter if they don't make much headway, the point is to have the Germans worried and counter their narrative of success all along the front.
8. Use those few bombers for a demonstrative night raid on Berlin and another on Bratislava. Sure, the enemy will retaliate on your cities - they'll bomb them anyway starting on day one, and much worse, so, again for propaganda purposes, do that.

Makes sense. For the Light tank, I'd say either the Vickers 6 Tonner or a Czech design.
 
.... So what. We're talking about the most that might be done, here, not what would have been likely taking into account misplaced political cautiousness.

Given a early enough PoD, say 1936, here is my near ASB fantasy list.

Poles consult with IBM & other US calculating machine companies like NCR to advance their penetration of the Enigma system. This equipment and special radio units scatter false messages through the German signals networks the morning of the attack, and jam a few key frequencies. By flooding the low level, non Enigma encrypted networks with deception messages the Germans must consider all that compromised and consider emergency replacement of their radio codes below division level. While the Poles would want to avoid reveling their penetration of the Enigma system the damage to the lower grade systems could be significant.

Stand up a Polish version of the Brandenberg organization. Poles who could pass well enough as German to infiltrate and sabatoge communications & command nodes.

Prepare commando type units to supplement the above with preemptive raids.

Train the Polish bomber force for night ops. Use it in a preemptive strike against German airfields before dawn. Follow up with dawn operations by lighter bombers and single engine aircraft over the nearer German airfields. While the size of the Polish AF wont destroy a lot this can severely disrupt German air ops for 48 to 72 hours. A well enough trained bomber force may be able to repeat the stunt another early morning.

Polish forward deployed units follow the commando raids with some spoiling attacks, diversion and deceptions. Long range artillery strikes at known German concentrations with the aim of disruption.

While all this wont cause a lot of physical damage to enemy field forces it has the potiential to badly disrupt their operations for 2-3 or more days. Success in up to half these items can sow doubt and long term problems in the upper levels of the German command hierarchy.
 
Mostly technically doable, still essentially ASB. Even if the Polish decision makers opted for a go-for-broke strategy (which some of my suggestions do imply), they'd draw a line at being the first ones to attack, which is what your night operation before the German attack is.
 
Last edited:
Makes sense. For the Light tank, I'd say either the Vickers 6 Tonner or a Czech design.

They already have the 7TP, which is a development of the British Six Tonner; they only need more than they historically had. My point in saying "provided it comes with a 37mm" is that they had two versions of it, one armed with a pair of MGs, which shouldn't be even designed, let alone produced. If they can also ram through the purchase of more Renault 35s, those have better armor, but they are slower in operation with the 2-man crew. If the purchase seems too hard or if it should mean fewer tanks, then drop that; again, it's not marginal technical changes that will make a significant difference.
 
... Even if the Polish decision makers opted for a go-for-broke strategy, they'd draw a line at being the first ones to attack, which is what your night operation before the German attack is.

German propaganda was working overtime, tho ineptly, to set up the Poles as the aggresors. The British and French governments were coming to recognize or accept the evidence the Germans intended to destroy the Polish nation. If this set of premptive actions looks like it might bollix the German attack a few critical days then it could appear worth the effort. It does require a lot of confidence or desperation on the part of the Poles. Their leaders already had a unrealistic expectation for French intervention. I think the ASB portion is conceiving such a gambit. Although technically possible in every respect, visualizing the possibility circa 1936 is a lot to expect.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not botching the licence agreement would help. There would be more available, perhaps time to modify the design earlier.
Perhaps. But again, there doesn't seem to have been much desired to really modify the basic design with something like belt feeding.
The ZB30 though had much easier potential for that due to being top fed already.
 
German propaganda was working overtime, tho ineptly, to set up the Poles as the aggresors. The British and French governments were coming to recognize or accept the evidence the Germans intended to destroy the Polish nation.

Yes, but in OTL, the Poles did nothing at all to provide the appeasers - of which there still were a few in France and Britain - with clues that they were the aggressors. They were even so careful as to accept the Western request to delay their mobilization.

Yes, both Rydz and Beck were grossly overconfident, but that wasn't just an overestimation of the Polish performance, it also was an overestimation of the French performance. Plus they had recently received the British on their side. I can imagine they saying: "Yes, this plan might ruin the German operations for three days, but what if it also implies that the French and the British conclude that we're the aggressors and therefore they are not bound to help us?". They would be very afraid of such a danger.
 
wow, I'm glad to see so many people debatting on the subject. So let's see what we've got here
Ok, lets start with airplanes:

1. Hispano-Suiza engines.

2. Fighters
3. Light bombers - PZL-23

I'll post more later.
So Hispano-Suiza getting a little less greedy and a simplified PZL 23 could help Polish Air Force in a realtively cheap way (better fighters with better engines and slighly more light bombers).

Re tanks. Everyone loves tank technology. But in 1939 the German tanks were still vulnerable to a good anti tank rifle. Anti tank rifles are vastly cheaper than tanks.
So better AT capacities. more 37mm bofors and more AT rifles allocated to each units. Again a plausible solution and not the costliest one.

They were in the context of the German Army of 1939. Polish strategy & operations were based on the world of 1938 or earlier. I don't know if they understood the changes or not, but they lacked time to adapt.
I thought Weygand had proposed to the Poles a plan where Poznan was to be evacuated without fighting because it was estimated indefensible and way too prone to create a dangerous salient

Given a early enough PoD, say 1936, here is my near ASB fantasy list.

Poles consult with IBM & other US calculating machine companies like NCR to advance their penetration of the Enigma system. This equipment and special radio units scatter false messages through the German signals networks the morning of the attack, and jam a few key frequencies. By flooding the low level, non Enigma encrypted networks with deception messages the Germans must consider all that compromised and consider emergency replacement of their radio codes below division level. While the Poles would want to avoid reveling their penetration of the Enigma system the damage to the lower grade systems could be significant.

Stand up a Polish version of the Brandenberg organization. Poles who could pass well enough as German to infiltrate and sabatoge communications & command nodes.

Prepare commando type units to supplement the above with preemptive raids.

Train the Polish bomber force for night ops. Use it in a preemptive strike against German airfields before dawn. Follow up with dawn operations by lighter bombers and single engine aircraft over the nearer German airfields. While the size of the Polish AF wont destroy a lot this can severely disrupt German air ops for 48 to 72 hours. A well enough trained bomber force may be able to repeat the stunt another early morning.

Polish forward deployed units follow the commando raids with some spoiling attacks, diversion and deceptions. Long range artillery strikes at known German concentrations with the aim of disruption.

While all this wont cause a lot of physical damage to enemy field forces it has the potiential to badly disrupt their operations for 2-3 or more days. Success in up to half these items can sow doubt and long term problems in the upper levels of the German command hierarchy.
Interesting stuff but it would require a Ridz Smigly SI.




I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am, every time I see how much importance is given to rivet-counting. Seriously, some MG with a slightly different mechanism or rate of fire, or some slightly more powerful aircraft engine is going to make a significant difference?

The obvious trump card would be accepting a Polish-French-British-Soviet alliance. With our hindsight, even if the Soviet troops moved in and didn't, after the German defeat, relinquish some border region in the East, that doesn't hold a candle to what happened to Poland historically. But with the knowledge decision makers had at the time, this borders ASB territory.
.
So more support from others countries. Perhaps a deal with USSR in order to make them wait. The longer Stalin waits, the longer the Germans are bled in Poland. Perhaps securing Slovakian neutrality? At least Poland wouldn't have to worry about Slovak unit or German forces in Slovakia: a shorter front is always better than a longer one. AND Romania. If Romania becomes a true ally instead of an already very benevolent neutral, that could help Poland in the Carpathians.
 
Mostly technically doable, still essentially ASB. Even if the Polish decision makers opted for a go-for-broke strategy, they'd draw a line at being the first ones to attack, which is what your night operation before the German attack is.
I thought Weygand had proposed to the Poles a plan where Poznan was to be evacuated without fighting because it was estimated indefensible and way too prone to create a dangerous salient
...

That and other options were at least referred to. The Poles were reluctant to give up large areas without at least a delaying action. In 1939 they were operating under the assumption half or more of the army would be able to make fighting withdrawal to the southern enclave.
 
So Hispano-Suiza getting a little less greedy and a simplified PZL 23 could help Polish Air Force in a realtively cheap way (better fighters with better engines and slighly more light bombers).

In case the H-S is still greedy, make a deal with RR or Isotta-Fraschini.
Hopefuly the light bomber idea will be quietly forgotten.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
One option might be to have the Poles adopt the .276 Pedersen round, rifle, and Johnson LMG in the 1920s...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.276_Pedersen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedersen_rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1941_Johnson_machine_gun
Small arms won't change the course of the war significantly. Also, it says in your link that the Johnson LMG was designed in 1940. Even if they could get it, is it really a serious improvement over the BAR, which the Poles already had?
 

Deleted member 1487

Small arms won't change the course of the war significantly. Also, it says in your link that the Johnson LMG was designed in 1940. Even if they could get it, is it really a serious improvement over the BAR, which the Poles already had?
Depends, as it was the Poles were seriously experimenting with semi-automatic battle rifles and had the BAR while investing heavily in their own homegrown light mortar.
I forgot about the Johnson LMG being a post-1939 design, so thanks for pointing that out, though the BAR could have been converted and lightened, as it was converted to 6.5mm for the Swedes.
The Johnson LMG was actually quite an improvement over the BAR in terms of weight, though it had it's teething problems which never really were worked out because the army opted to invest in the BAR, which they already had major investments in, rather than going with a new, potentially superior design. The Marines LOVED the Johnson, but didn't want to invest in a different weapon system than the US Army because of budget issues. Beyond that the US army did use the Johnson LMG for it's special service division. Chambered in a lighter powered cartridge like the Pedersen, it could have had a larger capacity magazine for the same weight, while having less recoil. So too could the BAR be lightened and field a larger capacity magazine with the smaller round that had less kick.

Of course if we really wanted to get far out we could mine the Polish-Japanese connection. Apparently they shared a lot of intel due to their mutual enemy, the USSR. Adopting the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka round/rifle/LMG and their Type 89 Grenade discharger while licensing the above would serve them VERY well. Apparently after WW1 thanks to the Russians being forced to adopt a lot of Japanese equipment due to their small arms shortages/production problems, the Czechs had started producing 6.5mm rounds for all the Japanese weapons the Czechoslovak Legion had brought back from the Eastern Front (they were equipped by the Russians with all the leftovers). The Poles too had used a large number of capture weapons, though had gotten their hands on more Austrian and German equipment than Russia/Japanese. Though there is really no reasonable POD to get the Poles to adopt a Japanese round and their small arms, they'd have been very close to having an intermediate round and weapon set.
Add to that more mortars and they could have tactically outperformed the Germans, who were actually pretty clumsy in their conduct of the war in 1939; the Polish army man for man was better trained than the newly expanded German army and had it not been for weight of numbers and firepower plus lack of Polish mobilization the Germans would likely have gotten a bloody nose and delayed victory.

If say the French had given them defense credit and they used them to buy French 120mm Brandt Mortars to make up for lack of artillery, they could have countered the German infantry howitzers, which from what I've read was a major component of tactical firepower that the Poles were not able to respond in kind to.

Unfortunately none of that counters the German airpower, communication, and mobility (truck/panzer) advantages, which combined with Soviet entry dooms the Poles, but it makes them pay a higher price and drags out the war, potentially making the national redoubt in the south viable with Romanian supply.
 
You've got 3,310,000 Jews in Poland by 1938. Presumably half are adults. With the level of hindsight this thread suggests and start date of 1920s, let's raise a Jewish Legion, like the Brits did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion At least they get a fighting chance.

Next, mine the Polish border. Place explosives under the bridges. Stock pile food. And arm every man and woman.

Lastly, delay the Soviets. Talk to Stalin, make overtures of addressing USSR issues with Poland.... anything that can slow down the Soviet advance until the German one is a mess.
 

Deleted member 1487

You've got 3,310,000 Jews in Poland by 1938. Presumably half are adults. With the level of hindsight this thread suggests and start date of 1920s, let's raise a Jewish Legion, like the Brits did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion At least they get a fighting chance.

Next, mine the Polish border. Place explosives under the bridges. Stock pile food. And arm every man and woman.

Lastly, delay the Soviets. Talk to Stalin, make overtures of addressing USSR issues with Poland.... anything that can slow down the Soviet advance until the German one is a mess.
Why? They were already subject to conscription in the Polish army where they'd be most useful anyway.

Arguably the Poles could have gotten Stalin into the Allied alliance, but they didn't want to give him access to their territory, because they rightfully were concerned he would never leave. So he signed on to the M-R Pact and the rest is history. Surrendering to Stalin without a fight would have been better than WW2, but at the time it was hard to argue for it before the war even happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact_negotiations#May_tripartite_negotiations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact_negotiations#Tripartite_military_talks_begin
 
So more support from others countries. Perhaps a deal with USSR in order to make them wait. The longer Stalin waits, the longer the Germans are bled in Poland. Perhaps securing Slovakian neutrality? At least Poland wouldn't have to worry about Slovak unit or German forces in Slovakia: a shorter front is always better than a longer one. AND Romania. If Romania becomes a true ally instead of an already very benevolent neutral, that could help Poland in the Carpathians.

Slovakia is impossible. It's a German puppet state, existing because Hitler said so. Forget about that.

Romania would be very nice and isn't a complete impossibility, but it seems very, very hard to obtain. At this time, every neutral's policy was: let's try to sit tight and maybe we won't be involved. Romania was willing to give away slices of its own territory later on, rather than going to war, so it's difficult to imagine they'd go to war on behalf of Poland.



You've got 3,310,000 Jews in Poland by 1938. Presumably half are adults. With the level of hindsight this thread suggests and start date of 1920s, let's raise a Jewish Legion, like the Brits did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion At least they get a fighting chance.

Next, mine the Polish border. Place explosives under the bridges. Stock pile food. And arm every man and woman.

Oops, Wiking made this point above. A "Jewish Legion"? That's the term one uses for a foreign unit. You are talking as if the Polish Jews were not Polish citizens, thus having all the duties of any able-bodied Polish male. Actually, only a minority of the Jews residing in Poland were not citizens, and a "Jewish legion" could be raised from them - as volunteers. And not many will volunteer. Why should they?
The rest of the young, able-bodied Jewish males - and we're therefore talking about something like 1/10th of a population, certainly not "half" of it - were eligible for military service. And some were indeed recalled. However, the Polish military tended not to consider these as good military manpower, and in part they were right; none of these young men had a family tradition of serving in the army, or of hunting with firearms, etc.; many were either city dwellers of modest physical fitness, or the humblest farmers. The one thing most young Jews had that many of their Catholic peers lacked was an education. Exploiting that would have meant making them officers. Unfortunately, the Polish military did not overly trust Jewish citizens, and many privates would have been irked at the idea of having a Jewish commander. So this largely did not happen.

The Polish border was defended, though not enough. Note that most experts do not suggest that a forward defense, the thing the Wojsko did attempt, would be a good idea; thus the units would be away from the border, chiefly; and placing mines that are not in the field of fire of a unit is a waste of resources. So maybe you'd want to suggest to fortify a line somewhat behind the border, actually?

Food never was an issue.

Arming every man and woman brings up the obvious question of, with what rifles? You are aware there weren't enough rifles even for some ON units, right?

The one good suggestion is demolitions. The Poles largely did not do that, mostly not because of disorganization or of lack of explosives, but because of their offensive mindset. They wanted the bridges for their own soon-to-be advances. That, indeed, should change, and, indeed, I suggested to slash the cavalry also because the Poles should switch to all-out defense with limited, spoiling counterattacks.

Lastly, delay the Soviets. Talk to Stalin, make overtures of addressing USSR issues with Poland.... anything that can slow down the Soviet advance until the German one is a mess.

This is hopeless, if done on a bilateral last-minute basis, of course. What the Poles should have done, they should have done beforehand. When the French and British were pushing for a 4-sided anti-German alliance including the Soviet Union, the Poles should not have opposed that. The French and the British had the clout to sit at a table with the Soviets, and for quite some time the Soviets would have loved that. By August 1939 already, it was too late.
 
Slovakia is impossible. It's a German puppet state, existing because Hitler said so. Forget about that.
Not just because Slovakia is German puppet but because of mistakes of Polish foreign policy in 1938. There was very strong pro Polish wing in Hlinka's Party, however with Polish occupation of parts of Kysuce, Orava and Spis it was basically death and Bratislava was able if not to gain support (war against Poland wasn't very popular) at least present the war against Poland as liberation war.
 
Window dressing. Ask yourself, if Poland had not occupied bits of former Czechoslovakian land, would Slovakia be able to say no to Hitler?

I'd aslo wonder why there had been a pro-Polish wing in that party. If I were to guess, I'd say the reason was that Warsaw had been unfriendly to Prague. Now Prague was no longer a problem, so why remain pro-Polish?
 
Last edited:
Top